LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I was referring to win share methodology not PER, but today's easier format creates higher PER for good players too - all advanced box stats are positively-affected for the better players and wouldn't be as high in previous eras.

i.e. I'm looking at the definition for PER, and it says that the formula sums up all the "good" possessions where something good happened like a made shot or assist and then subtracts all the bad things like turnovers or missed shots etc.. Obviously, an easier format provides higher likelihood of good things happening like good efficiency, which is the primary driver of today's higher PER's of top players.. Jokic, Giannis and Embiid achieve higher PER's in this cupcake format than Wilt, MJ and Lebron did in previous formats.

.202 after not playing since junior high is "sucking"?

how many junior-high kids project as hitting .202 in their rookie year of Double A ball, if you told them they had to quit until they were 30?

goat gonna goat

Lebron is almost a foot shorter than Shawn Bradley?

Height isn't a goat argument.. Neither is rebounds or assists, since tons of guys have a better goat case based on these things - Bird, Magic, Oscar and Jokic are better rebounders & passers than Lebron, so they have better goat cases based on these things than Lebron..

Otoh, no one was a better scorer than MJ, so this can be effectively used as a goat argument - his goat scoring ability is especially highlighted because the goat scoring average was achieved with goat brand of ball, while also having superior efficiency per possession despite using the most possessions ever to win (the only usage champ to win titles in the same year).

Btw, Jordan makes up for his shorter height to Lebron with superior athleticism, shot-making ability, and hang-time

For example, the gif above shows a spot where Lebron would theoretically have an advantage via bully-ball and yet I'd still rather have MJ do that than Lebron try to bully-ball and waste time and chemistry - he'll probably get fouled and miss FT's - horrific momentum-killer and chemistry for his team... But with MJ, his skill had a fluidity that allowed the best chemistry.

You were already corrected on this - MJ played high school varsity baseball, not junior high. Also, the answer to how many people with MJ's baseball background (played high school varsity) could hit as well or better than MJ as a 30-year old with as much prep is, lots of people. It's not really that impressive for a top-tier professional athlete. I mean Danny Ainge hit as well as MJ did straight out of high school at a higher level (AAA) without the benefit of being in physical peak and while also playing college basketball at the same time.

It's bizarre to pretend that what MJ did in baseball was anything other than mildly embarrassing. Tim Tebow was also slightly better than MJ in baseball. Also, it's not like MJ literally went into the minor league season with no preparation besides his experience in high school. His last NBA game before his first retirement was on 6/20/93. His first AA game was on 4/8/94. He almost certainly had access to top-tier instruction of the sort that most people don't get.

When I say endurance, I'm talking like an alien cheetah that can keep going 75 miles for the whole game (Jordan), while earthly cheetahs only go 75 for a little bit (Lebron)

MJ worked tirelessly and relentlessly on both ends for 48 minutes in a way that Lebron is not physically capable.. Jordan has Mayweather stamina and Lebron's is more like De La Hoya or something.

Even though I'm talking about a single game or series here, the stats and accolades reflect this endurance of top level play for their careers.. Jordan was MVP and DPOY-caliber from 88-98' (10 years), while Lebron was only MVP caliber for a 5 year window (09-13') and wasn't all-defense in his 30's (nothing since 2014).. Lebron simply cannot maintain a top-of-the-league effort on both ends of the floor over a game or career like MJ did.

SABR42 already pointed out that Montrealcorp forgot to account for either COVID-shortened seasons or the lockout year but I wanted to point out that he also used the current season in this calculation, which basically assumes that Lebron will literally miss the rest of the season.

And while we're laughing at him, the reason why he chose 6 as one of the cutoffs is because if you went one year further back, it would've included the 17-18 season when Lebron played all 82 games. Why 13 then? Because the 11-12 season was the first year Lebron played less than 75 games, so he desperately wanted to include that season. Except Montrealcorp didn't realize that Lebron only missed 4 games that season.

This is what we're dealing with here.

Are you asking me how math works? Is this like a complete mystery to you?

I'm pretty sure I'm way more familiar with minor league baseball than you are. Then again, we can probably say that about lots of things.

Either way, how many regular season NBA games do you think MJ missed because he played minor league baseball? The answer might surprise you.

Lebron missing a quarter of the games at an age where MJ literally didn't play any games at all isn't exactly a win for MJ.

MJ missed over a quarter of his team's games in 01-02 so that means he must have been all-NBA right?

Twog:

Reality:

https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-is-a-b...

MJ was a pitcher as a junior in HS and then he quit until he was 30 - then he hit .202 in his first year of AA - that's impressive specifically because he quit for about 15 years - your examples of Ainge or whoever don't include them quitting for 15 years

It's unlikely that HS juniors would be projected at .202 after a 15 year break

Mumbo jumbo nonsense.. MJ has articles like that too but he doesn't have the bad defensive performance that Lebron had because Lebron let Kawhi shoot lights out on him in 2014 and win FMVP...

then he let a bench player double their scoring average to win another FMVP (Iggy)...

then he let KD go off twice so that's 4 FMVP lost to opposing SF

and he wasn't an all-defender for his entire 30's (since 2014)

The Heat teams had great scoring help, so no one had to carry the scoring load like MJ while still playing 1st-team defense - only MJ had such a load

He wasn't a PO, not sure what you're trying to imply here.

This is pure nonsense - MJ had almost 10 months to prepare. That plus being in physical prime (relative to being a gangly 18-year old) is far more advantageous than simply going from high school to minor league baseball, which is much tougher.

In fact, if you take a professional caliber athlete at their peak with a reasonable baseball body, you could probably teach them how to baseball in that amount of time enough to hit not much worse than that even if they literally never played baseball beyond little league. A far bigger problem than experience is lack of talent and proper instruction. 10 months is a ton of time given the kind of instruction he had access to but no amount of time will fix lack of talent.

Again, we saw Tim Tebow do the same thing (he also last played baseball in his junior year in high school) with slightly more overall success.

You claim to have played college basketball and think Lebron's job on defense is just to guard the other team's small forward? I mean even 12U doesn't work that way.

He gives Jordan credit for all the **** that Pippen did to let him get away gambling for steals to get dopy votes, and downplays Lebron's playoff defense versatility

Let me know the difference between a Game 7 in a 7 game series and a Game 5 in a 5 game series.

There is none.

Both MJ and LeBron have been clutch as **** across their careers.

,
List of players that MJ and Lebron faced

1) SHAQ

Top Lebron moments:

* 2004-2006 were the only years of Lebron's career where Shaq had some prime left and Lebron finished behind Shaq in MVP voting during those years, and lost the conference to him as well (2005 and 2006).. Lebron never dunked on him.


Top Jordan moments:

* Jordan won MVP over prime Shaq in 1996 and 1998 and swept Shaq in 1996 ECF.. He also dunked on him, shown here.

2. KOBE:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron watched Kobe win more championships during the time that both were in their prime, and also watched Kobe save the team in the 2008 Olympics.

- He missed the much-anticipated, Kobe/Lebron matchup in 2009 and 2010 Finals, because his top-seeded team underachieved by losing to lower seeds in earlier rounds.


Top Jordan moments:

- MJ dunked on Kobe in their first ever possession vs. each other, shown here

- MJ showed his protege how it's done by hitting the game-winner in the first game of the 1997 Finals, after Kobe had airballed 4 straight game-winner attempts against the same team earlier in the playoffs.

- MJ passed the torch to his protoge in the 1998 all-star game by scoring on him at will (5 times in head-to-head possessions, shown here).

3. DUNCAN

[Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron missed the infamous game-tying 3-pointer and needed Ray Allen to save him


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan MADE his game-tying 3-pointer from the exact same spot during his first meeting with Duncan/Popovich in 1998 (the shot is shown here)... Then he dominated the OT, including 2 dunks over Duncan, shown here..

Later in that 1998 season, Jordan won the Finals against the team (Jazz) that destroyed Duncan's Spurs in WCF 2nd Round (Duncan/Robinson/Popovich's Spurs won 56 games in RS).

4. GARNETT:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got his **** pushed in during 2008 and 2010 ECSF


Top Jordan moments:

- Jordan schooled Garnett in the 1998 all-star game (shown here) and during the regular season (shown here, hereand here).

- The only time where MJ and Garnett were matched up defensively for an entire game was during a 2002 contest - both were matched up at SF, and 38-year old Jordan scored 35 on Garnett in every way imagineable, including various blow-by dunks and layups, shown here

5. SHAWN MARION:

Top Lebron moments:

- Lebron got locked down by OLD Shawn Marion during the 2011 Finals, which was one of the greatest chokes ever by a star in the Finals.


Top Jordan moments:

- 38-year old Jordan hit the game-winner in PRIME Shawn Marion's face during a contest in 2002 (shown here), and then destroyed him for 41 points in another contest (shown here).

6. 2003-2004 seasons

2003 JORDAN..... 19.3 PER.. 20.0 ppg.. 44.5 fg
2004 LEBRON..... 18.3 PER.. 20.9 ppg.. 41.7 fg
.

^^^ The previous post confirms that David West is lying when he says that Lebron is better due to the 90's being ancient and outdated - that argument actually applies to Bill Russell, who didn't play against any of the same guys that Jordan did, whereas Jordan played against most of the same players that Lebron did.. i.e. in 1998, Jordan was MVP over all-stars like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, and Kidd, who all destroyed Lebron in various series.. So Jordan faced many of the best players that Lebron ever faced and did better against them than Lebron did.

So West's argument is wrong and actually applies to Russell and the ancient 60's (totally different player pool)

Lebron isn't clutch compared to MJ based on his many historic chokes such as 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of critical Game 4 that swung the 2009 ECF, while also losing 3 fourth quarter leads in that series and getting upset by an injured, 1-star team.. It's impossible to win a close series if the star turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5)..

In addition to this 2009 choke, Lebron had a historic meltdown in the 2010 ECSF as the favorite (21 on 34% for the last 3 games) and the goat choke in 2011.

In addition to these chokes, Lebron shoots much worse in clutch time (last 5 within 5) despite lower clutch burden/attempts, while also shooting horrifically on game-winners in the playoffs compared to Jordan, and never hitting a game-winner in the Finals (0-10).. Lebron has never even scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals.

So don't compare Lebron's clutch ability to Jordan's - it doesn't compare - Lebron actually needs "closer" teammates that can match him in scoring for entire playoff runs like Wade, Kyrie or AD and dominate or "close" games for him.

First of all, who cares about defensive versatility if it's bad defense and the defense isn't elite - Lebron hasn't been an elite defender in his 30's (no all-defense in his 30's).. So who cares about a bad defender that is supposedly "versatile".. This doesn't compare to a DPOY-level defender like Hakeem or MJ that isn't as "versatile" (even though they both are anyway).. It's more valuable for jordan to lock up 3 positions than for Lebron to play bad defense on 5.

Furthermore, it's a massive exaggeration because candybar said that Lebron can "lock up" opposing bigs, which is a lie.. .Any decently-skilled big views Lebron as a "mouse-in-the-house" and everyone collectively 'gasps' if Lebron is caught on an island against Duncan, Dirk, or Jokic (which is why he never guarded them).

I distinctly remember Lebron getting destroyed in Game 1 of ECF against the Pacers when Spolestra dared to put Lebron on David West.. West ragdolled Lebron, which forced Spolestra to change the whole defensive game plan for the rest of the series.. And who cares about Lebron playing defense on bigs that are already crappy and low-producers - he simply can't guard decent bigs - it's viewed as a mismatch and iso opportunity for the big.

Ultimately, none of this matters because MJ's tireless effort and relentless mentality made him a better defensive leader that commanded respect and maximum effort from teammates.. So it's night and day - Jordan's defensive impact was far superior on many levels.

I don't recall saying that, but either way, you literally have a 9-year old's view of how defense works in basketball. The point isn't that Lebron can specifically guard certain bigs 1:1 (though he's pretty good at this, it simply hasn't been a particularly important role for most of Lebron's career) but that Lebron can play a variety of roles on defense at a high level and practically every role at a reasonable level, which both improves the defensive performance of any Lebron lineup and also allows his teams a ton of roster/lineup flexibility. You literally don't even seem to know what different defensive roles are and how important each one is relative to one another, despite claiming to have played college basketball, which says a ton about your general cognitive skills.

Twog, you never answered this so I'm guessing this is also somewhat embarrassing for you or you literally do not understand any of this, which ironically might explain why you didn't get much playing time and your PPG was low. I'm guessing you were basically a dumbass version of this:

Well except you probably weren't staying in front of your man either.

Garnett is historically overrated.

Kmart levels of bitchery but with a less appealing personality

Actually, my basketball lineage is elite, beginning in high school with the late, great Bill Green and continuing in college with Jim Molinari and the late, great "Shakey" Rodriquez

So you don't think I know about defensive positioning? I played in Green's matchup zone that won 6 titles