LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Ok good, so unlike fallguy you can at least admit that LeBron is superior to Jordan at some aspects of the game. We're getting somewhere! Now let's talk about the rest.
Defense. MJ was a great perimeter defender, but in no way did he have LeBron's defensive versatility. You could ask Jordan to lock down the opposing 1-3, but LeBron in his prime could literally lock down 1-5, he had the quickness to keep up with point guards, and the size and strength to hang with bigs. Of course old LeBron isn't
As it was written.
Meh, this is not a case of “both sides”.
The LBJ side accepts MJ as a goat level player; whereas the MJ side is constantly arguing LeBron is a bum barely or not even top 5.
One side of this is driven by a toxic mix of hate and nostalgia, the debate is a proxy for them arguing a small sliver of NBA history as basketball perfection. The other side is really a lot more okay with itself, accepting of change and progress.
It is though. Go find all the posts about how "terrible" Wade/Bosh/AD/Kyrie are.
I think there's one poster that doesn't think LeBron is Top 5. I have him 2nd.
I think Candybar has Jordan outside his Top 5 at times.
There's plenty of hate both ways.
But, of course, you won't see that from the side you are on.
"keeping up" with point guards and "hanging" with bigs isn't "locking down"
And this is a repeated theme - Lebron's caliber on defense is often mediocre despite being "versatile", while Jordan was always just the best - he always played the best defense possible on the PG, SG or SF assignments, while Lebron is frequently getting destroyed on defense despite being "versatile"
So it's a clear-cut choice - versatile but mediocre, or simply the best?...
i.e. getting pushed into defensive assignments b
my mouse scroll just broke
My dad hates Paul McCartney with an incredible passion. Always has. Can't even say his name without his face looking like he's about to.vomit. When my dad was sick in the hospital, my brother went and put a photo of Paul McCartney on the wall as a joke. If Fallguy is ever sick in the hospital, I wish I could put some LeBron posters on the wall.
Why would you hate McCartney with a passion? I get not liking the Beatles, or even hating Lennon since he was an abusive piece of **** but McCartney?
Tbf McCartney has a very punchable face
Don't tell me what to say and what not to say Paul McCartney.
My dad hates Paul McCartney with an incredible passion. Always has. Can't even say his name without his face looking like he's about to.vomit. When my dad was sick in the hospital, my brother went and put a photo of Paul McCartney on the wall as a joke. If Fallguy is ever sick in the hospital, I wish I could put some LeBron posters on the wall.
Fallguy said Bron's better 11 years ago. He will enjoy the LeBron posers on the wall!
a portion of the responses were accidentally posted twice
Regardless, sabr's weak post was responded to and the truth is out there for anyone that isn't afraid to face facts they don't like
The only reason everyone jumped on that post is because it was the first time someone made an effort to respond
but his post was a compilation of all the long-debunked false narratives taught to lebron fans by Klutch Sports... the thread title should read "MVP = anyone that makes an effort to respond to fallguy"
What about when LeBron locked down a PRIME DRose in the playoffs. He literally told Spo "I got DRose". And locked him DOWN
^^^ the exception that proves the rule - history shows that Lebron doesn't play elite defense on bigs or point guards, while he can't defend shooting guards off screens like Klay, and then let opposing SF's win FMVP four times (he also let let Jamison outplay him).
So despite Lebron's perceived versatility, he doesn't play great defense on any position, while Jordan usually locked down his assignments - this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball but Jordan is the best at it.
Accordingly, historic defenders like Duncan or Hakeem are better than Lebron defensively for the same reason that Jordan was - they played better defense than lebron despite being less versatile.
this is a repeated theme - Lebron is "versatile" at basketball, while Jordan is the best at it.
What about when LeBron locked down a PRIME DRose in the playoffs. He literally told Spo "I got DRose". And locked him DOWN
2011 ECSF vs Celtics
Wade.............. 30.2 ppg.....4.8 apg... 3.0 tov.... 53%
Lebron............ 28.0 ppg.... 3.6 apg... 3.4 tov.... 48%
would MJ be considered GOAT if another player came along and carried him over the Pistons in 1991?
because that's what happened when Lebron finally got past the Celtics - another player carried him over those Celtics, as you can see above
MJ never played with another ball dominant player who knows how he'd do, but I'd be solid money they'd have a series better than him occasionally.
You like to pick a single series, and if that doesn't fit your pre-conceived notions a partial series like you do with the 08 Celtics constantly.
Lebron has played nearly 300 playoff games, his stats are insane in them, there's a **** ton of variance in basketball, you isolate the bad variance stretches and ignore the good ones.
All the arguments for Lebron can be used by many others like Shawn Marion was a more versatile defender than MJ or Duncan, yet Marion isn't considered as good a defender as either.. History shows there's great defense and then there's versatile defense, which is generally crappier defense.
Similarly, many guys like Bird, Magic, Jokic or Draymond are considered better rebounder-passers than MJ, yet none are considered better basketball players.. Versatility isn't an argument for playing the best basketball.. You can be a versatilite scorer or defender but still not great at either.
Essentially, other players have better goat cases based on defensive versatility (Marion) or rebounding-passing (Draymond, Bird, Jokic, Magic) yet none are considered better defenders or basketball players than MJ.
Accordingly, there are literally zero arguments for Lebron because other players can make better goat cases based on defensive versatility or rebounding-passing, while MJ wins actual goat metrics like production rate/dominance, media accolade and winning (drivers of winning include brand of ball, teammate development, chemistry, leadership, mental toughness and clutch).
Why doesn't this happen to anyone else?
It's not the first time you made a giant wall of text where you repeated yourself more than once. No one else does this.
^^^ the exception that proves the rule - history shows that Lebron doesn't play elite defense on bigs or point guards, while he can't defend shooting guards off screens like Klay, and then let opposing SF's win FMVP four times (he also let let Jamison outplay him).
So despite Lebron's perceived versatility, he doesn't play great defense on any position
Pure bullshit.
If LeBron doesn't play great defense, why was he first team all-defense 5 years in a row in his prime? Why did he finish second in DPOY voting twice (2009 and 2013)? Jordan stans never shut up about his DPOY, but LeBron getting 2nd is completely ignored? Where's your consistency? You have none, it's all bias and LeBron hate.
Here are LeBron's teams' defensive ratings for all the teams during LeBron's physical prime:
2009 CLE: 3rd
2010 CLE: 7th
2011 MIA: 5th
2012 MIA: 4th
2013 MIA: 9th
So consistently a good to great defense with LeBron playing the most minutes and being the most impactful defender. He was versatile and he was good, any other conclusion is just hating.
Similarly, many guys like Bird, Magic, Jokic or Draymond are considered better rebounder-passers than MJ, yet none are considered better basketball players.. Versatility isn't an argument for playing the best basketball.. You can be a versatilite scorer or defender but still not great at either.
This is pretty ****ing simple.
Do any of these other players have 40,000 career points?
Are they 4 time FMVP on top of that?
Karl Malone comes close on points, but is 0 time FMVP.
As for Bird and Magic, did you know that you could add up their career points, and it would still be less than one LeBron James?
MJ never played with another ball dominant player and he might've scored less than them in a series of he did
It doesn't take a ball-dominant teammate to lead Lebron in scoring because AD is off-ball and carried the Lakers in the 2020 WCF, which carried Lebron to the Finals.
Infact, AD led the whole NBA in playoff scoring that year.
So you've helped us determine that Wade and AD carried Lebron to a couple of his Finals.
If course Kyrie led Lebron on scoring for the 2016 1st Round.. In those playoffs and Finals, Kyrie was equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level)..
Furthermore, only Lebron had teammates outplay league MVP's like Kyrie over Curry, or AD over Jokic, or Wade over Dirk.. Show me where Pippen went to the Finals and outplayed MVP Barkley or Malone - don't make me laugh..
Pure nonsense.. Wade led Lebron in scoring for that entire playoff run.. AD also led Lebron im scoring for entire playoff run.
So you've just lying when you say i cherry-pick
How many times have I said that Lebron never won ANY series against a top tean with weak help, aka he never beat top 5 SRS or Finals team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick)
Your whole strawman about versatility is laughable.
Yeah no **** Draymond Green isn't considered better than Michael Jordan, because he's a defensive specialist and elite role player. Now, if a player had Draymond's defensive skills and was a 25 ppg scorer on top of that, that would be one of the best players ever.
If only we had a player with the genius basketball IQ and the all-around basketball versatility of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, but with more athleticism, more longevity, and more scoring. Oh wait, we do! It's LeBron James!
Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are unanimously considered top-10 players of all-time. LeBron James has scored more points than the two of them combined.
This is pretty ****ing simple.
Do any of these other players have 40,000 career points?
Are they 4 time FMVP on top of that?
Karl Malone comes close on points, but is 0 time FMVP.
As for Bird and Magic, did you know that you could add up their career points, and it would still be less than one LeBron James?
Sure, so Marion, Jokic and many others destroy the "versatile defender" or "better rebounder-passer" arguments, while Jordan has a ton of great statistical achievement just like the 40k and other statistical arguments that you used for Lebron..
When we compare their respective statistical achievement, we see that Jordan's records are tied to dominance/production rates, while Lebron's are tied to longevity and hanging on for longer (dominating at a lower level for longer).
Btw, we know that Lebron can't score 36k as the role man and deft post or mid-range touch like Malone, but he is built similarly except with a guard handle... So even though it's remarkable to see Karl Malone with a guard handle, it's still just Karl Malone... still inferior to MJ
.
Come off it, smh
Lebron hasn't been a good defender for the last 10 years (no all-defense), while Draymond has been an all-defensive LOCK for the last 10 years and counting.
So there's no comparison between a mediocre defender like Lebron and a goat candidate defender like Draymond or MJ..
And the eye test confirms the defensive gap because it's no big deal when Jokic, Dirk or Duncan catch the ball on Draymond, while everyone collectively gasps when Lebron is caught defending Duncan or Dirk, (which is why it never happened and Lebron was hidden against those guys - he never guarded them).
Btw, it's clear that versatility means nothing when comparing a mediocre defender like Lebron to a goat defender like MJ.. In addition to the versatility argument being bad, it's overblown because Jordan wasn't some 6'4" shrimp.. The "strongest guard to ever play" (according to Magic) dominated the post and offensive glass compared to Lebron.. MJ was viewed by many as the best post player in the game - hed the league in scoring for 3 straight years from the post (96-98').
We agree that Lebron is an all-timer, but differ widely on his comparison to MJ, or even where he ranks in our respective top 15's.
If only we had a player with the genius basketball IQ and the all-around basketball versatility of Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, but with more scoring
You're conflating IQ with vision
They aren't the same.
Lebron's IQ and scoring is nowhere near Bird's.
Lebron doesn't understand how to make the ball move and have high-assist teams, or #1 offenses, or the best brand of ball.. Instead he gets beat by better brands like Spurs, Mavs, Warriors, Nuggets and Magic..
Accordingly, Lebron has lower IQ than Bird and it's tied to his weaker scoring ability - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates yields excessive ball-dominance from a frontcourt position.. This abnormal ball-dominance for size/position imposes spot-up roles that prevent teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding weak records, perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast.
Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are unanimously considered top-10 players of all-time. LeBron James has scored more points than the two of them combined.
Miller has 3k points more than Bird but is nowhere near the scorer that Bird was
Career points is simply a horrible way to compare the scoring between 2 player unless it's compared to career minutes as well.
For example, it's reasonable to say that Lebron's 3rd option in 2010 was a better scorer than Pippen based on 1k more points in 3k less minutes, while also having far superior highs, such as outplaying Lebron in the 07' 1st round.
I never wrote, or implied that LeBron was equal to Draymond Green on defense.
Try reading what I wrote, moron.
This is pretty ****ing simple.
Do any of these other players have 40,000 career points?
Are they 4 time FMVP on top of that?
Karl Malone comes close on points, but is 0 time FMVP.
As for Bird and Magic, did you know that you could add up their career points, and it would still be less than one LeBron James?
1) Lebron has all the longevity statistical records, while Jordan has all the dominance/production rate statistical records
2) playing 1st team all-defense > mediocre defense but versatility..
And the versatility argument is overblown because Jordan was pretty huge too and aggressive, while dominating Lebron on the offensive glass or post categories.. And again, we're talking about comparing a bad defender in Lebron to a goat defender that was only 2 inches shorter with much bigger hands - Phil said the hands were the difference between MJ and Kobe and you guys don't think Kobe is anywhere near MJ
Btw, it's clear that versatility means nothing when comparing a mediocre defender like Lebron to a goat defender like MJ...
This was addressed already.
If LeBron was a mediocre defender how did he finish 2nd in DPOY twice?
Here are LeBron's teams' defensive ratings for all the teams during LeBron's physical prime:
2009 CLE: 3rd
2010 CLE: 7th
2011 MIA: 5th
2012 MIA: 4th
2013 MIA: 9th
So consistently a good to great defense with LeBron playing the most minutes and being the most impactful defender. He was versatile and he was good, any other conclusion is just hating.
And keep in mind LeBron did this with far less defensive help than Jordan ever had. During all these seasons, the only all-defense teammate LeBron ever had was Anderson Varejao who made all-defense second team, once.
Meanwhile, Pippen, Grant, and Rodman were all teammates with Jordan and made all-defense teams.
And again, we're talking about comparing a bad defender in Lebron to a goat defender that was only 2 inches shorter with much bigger hands - Phil said the hands were the difference between MJ and Kobe and you guys don't think Kobe is anywhere near MJ
How did a bad defender like LeBron finish 2nd in DPOY twice?
Will you answer this question rather than keep repeating this blatant falsehood?
Here are LeBron's teams' defensive ratings for all the teams during LeBron's physical prime:
2009 CLE: 3rd
2010 CLE: 7th
2011 MIA: 5th
2012 MIA: 4th
2013 MIA: 9th
So consistently a good to great defense with LeBron playing the most minutes and being the most impactful defender. He was versatile and he was good, any other conclusion is just hating.
And keep in mind LeBron did this with far less defensive help than Jordan ever had. During all these seasons, the only all-defense teammate LeBron ever had was Anderson Varejao who made all-defense second team, once.
Meanwhile, Pippen, Grant, and Rodman were all teammates with Jordan and made multiple all-defense teams.
Miller has 3k points more than Bird but is nowhere near the scorer that Bird was
Career points is simply a horrible way to compare the scoring between 2 player unless it's compared to career minutes as well.
For example, it's reasonable to say that Lebron's 3rd option in 2010 was a better scorer than Pippen based on 1k more points in 3k less minutes, while also having far superior highs, such as outplaying Lebron in the 07' 1st round.
OK, what would you like to use?
LeBron James: 27.1 ppg, 25.7 points per 36, 40376 points, .589 TS%
Larry Bird: 24.3 ppg, 22.8 points per 36, 21791 points, .565 TS%
So Larry Bird scored half as many total points, and had fewer points per game and per minute. I even added TS% to show that LeBron James scored more efficiently than Larry Bird.
So spare me another essay about how Larry Bird was an expert jumpshooter and how LeBron can't shoot, even though LeBron is statistically superior in every way.
I'm just responding to you so everyone else can see what a delusional moron you are.
