LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
LeBron 25ppg for 20 straight years.
I don't even think MJ can be considered the GOAT scorer anymore.
Bron holds the all time scoring record + 25 ppg for 20 straight seasons.
I kind of disagree with this on a few levels, 1) Wemby is a good passer and isn't really comparable to young AD in that sense, I also don't think they are really comparable as players and Wemby has potential to be far better at basically everything, 2) Wemby I think has significant GOAT equity even without developing into an elite passer because he could easily develop into an all-time level defender, 3) I don't think Jokic has significant GOAT equity at this point; he will certainly be an all-t
It's just the way the game is being played now, teams that have an offensive player that can exploit high pick and rolls is how teams put up lots of points scoring wise. Players that are elite at this basically run the NBA offensively.
Can Wemby do enough on defensive end to offset this? I am not so sure.
I'm also happy to elaborate on the Jokic case as well if anyone's interested.
Why doesn't Joker have any GOAT equity?
Many time I hear mj suck because he lost in the first round .
Cant wait to see what will they say if Lebron lost in the first round this year ….
With a team far more better then mj ever had the luxury to play with when he lost in the first round …..
Ps: AND the 80s Celtic were a better a team but let’s slide that fact for now ….
Champ....
People aren't saying MJ sucks for losing in the first round. They are saying that losing in the finals is better than losing in the first round.
Ok killer?
Many time I hear mj suck because he lost in the first round .
Cant wait to see what will they say if Lebron lost in the first round this year ….
With a team far more better then mj ever had the luxury to play with when he lost in the first round …..
Ps: AND the 80s Celtic were a better a team but let’s slide that fact for now ….
He's 39 and in his 21st season. He's already blown away every players 21st season. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs even once after age 35.
MJ Stans: “Lebron got swept in the Finals!”
“But MJ got swept in the first round, how is that better than losing in the finals”
MJ Stans: “Imagine if LeBron loses to -350 Denver in year 21 in the first round!! I heard MJ sucks because he lost in the first round!”
Shaq had amazing footwork and was an underrated passer. In today’s spaced out nba he’d average 6.5 apg MINIMUM.
Especially out of the triangle where the post man has three shotting options to pass to instead of two.
Everyone needs a 2nd scoring option
Without it, you're a 1-man team
Again, when Pippen missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF or Game 7 in 1990, Jordan only needed about 10 points from Pippen to win either game and make the Finals - that would be a 100% carry-job and when Jordan finally started winning, the 10 points is what Pippen provided in many critical games, or 16 on 40% in many big series or Finals.
So Pippen was never a juggernaut that provided big production but the winning spotlight and ring count
LeBron's teams were more successful form 2004-10 than Jordan's were pre-1991. He didn't need a second scoring option to win the East. He needed more scoring options but more importantly a strong defense around him and a great coach to win chips, like everyone has. The supporting cast argument is weak on both sides.
He's doing a great job at turning everyone who's not an MJ-diehard onto the LeBron side.
That's the one thing he's done well.
I'm an MJ fan. he's the GOAT, but I'm not gonna slander the 2nd greatest basketball player of all-time. That's stupid.
MJ Stans: “Lebron got swept in the Finals!”
“But MJ got swept in the first round, how is that better than losing in the finals”
MJ Stans: “Imagine if LeBron loses to -350 Denver in year 21 in the first round!! I heard MJ sucks because he lost in the first round!”
What u think was the odds of MJ vs the Celtics ?
I don’t get your point tho .
Isn’t true ?
The MJ stance never condemn MJ to lose in the first round .
Ah yes when you actually have champion in your conference it’s actually harder to get out huh ?
Who knew ….
He's 39 and in his 21st season. He's already blown away every players 21st season. Jordan didn't even make the playoffs even once after age 35.
So what lol .
Give MJ the team of lakers and he never miss the playoffs too ?
With total trash he was reaching the playoffs which it’s what was actually happening before his injury shrug .
But it’s ok .
U all keep praising LeBron his best in the league , allnba caliber blabla but hey let’s not treat him as such if he lose in the first round because his 39 ???
Lol .
U can’t have it both ways ….
Champ....
People aren't saying MJ sucks for losing in the first round. They are saying that losing in the finals is better than losing in the first round.
Ok killer?
and me I’m asking what ****ing difference it makes u lose in the first round or the final when u actually lose vs the freakn nba champion anyway ?
Just because you are lucky to not be in the same conference of the champs your better ?
Lol.
Many time I hear mj suck because he lost in the first round .
Cant wait to see what will they say if Lebron lost in the first round this year ….
With a team far more better then mj ever had the luxury to play with when he lost in the first round …..
Ps: AND the 80s Celtic were a better a team but let’s slide that fact for now ….
He’s 39 bro, 39 year old MJ and the Wizards had no playoff 1st rounds to worry about.
Leaving aside how silly it is to try and compare to anything about this series where Denver are red hot favs.
He’s 39 bro, 39 year old MJ and the Wizards had no playoff 1st rounds to worry about.
Leaving aside how silly it is to try and compare to anything about this series where Denver are red hot favs.
ah yes, MJ without even an all stars vs a super team like the celtic he surely was not a huge underdog either but at least he set an all time record in playoffs.
ah yes i remember the narrative now !
Well Mj lost in first round because he wasnt good enough during the regular season to fight weaker teams in the 1st round ....
Well Look at lebron lol.
here we go again -> Lebron his great makes allNBA .
-> Lebron lose well u know his old ...
thats cool so Lebron just never cant be wrong and failed, how great that is....
ps: again MJ with that lakers team there is no way he miss the playoffs either....
Aren't you always telling us what a legend Larry Hughes is? Not to mention Jerry Stackhouse, Rip Hamilton, and Christian Laettner? If LeBron had those guys, you'd be talking about how amazing they were.
ah yes, MJ without even an all stars vs a super team like the celtic he surely was not a huge underdog either but at least he set an all time record in playoffs.
ah yes i remember the narrative now !
Well Mj lost in first round because he wasnt good enough during the regular season to fight weaker teams in the 1st round ....
Well Look at lebron lol.
here we go again -> Lebron his great makes allNBA .
-> Lebron lose well u know his old ...
thats cool so Lebron just never cant be wrong and failed, how g
MJ was fully in control of that Wizards team as GM - including choosing his coach and adding himself on a min salary. If the team wasn’t good enough in those circumstances it ALL comes back on MJ.
In any case, we now have the comprehensive proof that old LeBron >> old MJ in terms of health, athleticism, availability and production. So what are you really trying to argue here? LeBron can get swept by the Nuggets and he’ll still have produced a clearly superior age 39 season to MJ.
All time draft, who are you picking first to help build a dynasty?
Assuming you have a very average roster to start with...
So what lol .
Give MJ the team of lakers and he never miss the playoffs too ?
With total trash he was reaching the playoffs which it’s what was actually happening before his injury shrug .
But it’s ok .
U all keep praising LeBron his best in the league , allnba caliber blabla but hey let’s not treat him as such if he lose in the first round because his 39 ???
Lol .
U can’t have it both ways ….
The Wizards with MJ off the court in 2001 had a much better net rating than the Lakers with LeBron off this year. The constant lying of MJ stans despite readily available data that proves their lies is timeless.
and me I’m asking what ****ing difference it makes u lose in the first round or the final when u actually lose vs the freakn nba champion anyway ?
Just because you are lucky to not be in the same conference of the champs your better ?
Lol.
That Bulls team wasn’t good. By your logic the 8 seed that loses to the title winning 1 seed every year is the same as every other playoff team? Yes, very logical. Tank to the 8 seed and lose to the eventual champ because it’s more impressive than losing in the Finals.
What u think was the odds of MJ vs the Celtics ?
I don’t get your point tho .
Isn’t true ?
The MJ stance never condemn MJ to lose in the first round .
Ah yes when you actually have champion in your conference it’s actually harder to get out huh ?
Who knew ….
No one reasonable said MJ should have beaten the Celtics in that first round. I have no issue with MJ losing to them, it was an unwinnable series for him. It counts zero against him.
Just don’t tell me getting swept was the same or “more impressive” than Lebrons 07 Finals run at a younger age because they both lost to the eventual champions. Or use “Finals record” as a goat metric when losing before the Fjnals is superior.
All-time draft, who are you picking first to help build a dynasty?
Assuming you have a very average roster to start with...
It has to be LeBron: more versatile, bigger and athletic and we now know that he will extend his career across more than two decades; playing thousands of All-NBA calibre minutes more than Jordan.
Yes, as a GM you need to build around him successfully and get a championship contender out on the floor around him within that first half-decade. Otherwise, he won't sit around and simply accept your incompetence. That seems like a fair trade IMO.
If you're worried about rebuilding around him, then maybe Jordan is the safer choice. More beta about his career, lacking vision on how to take control of his destiny. He'll even fail to drag you over hot coals in the media when you choose to end things in his late thirties, and just moan about it decades later in his documentary instead.
This thread is pretty boring and repetitive.
Lock it up.
Champ....
People aren't saying MJ sucks for losing in the first round. They are saying that losing in the finals is better than losing in the first round.
Ok killer?
Low seeds lose in the 1st Round - the first time Lebron had a low seed (21'), he lost in the 1st Round.
The only reason Lebron never had low seeds before that is because he waited 3 years to develop a veteran, high seed and good coach before entering his first playoffs in 2006.. Accordingly, his 3rd-year high seeds can't be compared to Jordan's 1st-year 8 seeds..
And by "development", I mean that Lebron and Zydrunas became all-stars in 05' - that's development... This all-star duo added a HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender before the 06' season - that's more development.. So these teams from 06-10' cannot be compared to Jordan's rookie & sophomore teams (85-87').. Jordan didn't get this 3-year development journey to high seed before entering his 1st playoffs - he was throw in right away with no cast or coaching.
Ultimately, Finals teams are almost always high seeds/good teams relative to their conference - that's why Finals appearances are conference-dependant and matter little - winning the whole league is obviously what matters, which means winning the Finals..
Losing the Finals badly means the player wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference and are simply benefitting from a weak conference.. In this case, it was a weak conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (01', 02", 03', 07', 09'), yet Lebron took the top 3 options and put them on 1 team (the:"decision") - he remarkably got credit for winning the conference after that.. But ultimately, no one cares about Lebron beating Rose and DeRozan when he should be facing Bosh and Wade.
It has to be LeBron: more versatile, bigger and athletic and we now know that he will extend his career across more than two decades; playing thousands of All-NBA calibre minutes more than Jordan.
Yes, as a GM you need to build around him successfully and get a championship contender out on the floor around him within that first half-decade. Otherwise, he won't sit around and simply accept your incompetence. That seems like a fair trade IMO.
If you're worried about rebuilding around him, then may
Think it depends on when you're starting the franchise too. If you're starting in 1984 when nobody was particularly good at basketball and shooting contested jumpers (and not being that good at passing) was considered an asset, then you might want Jordan.
Low seeds lose in the 1st Round - the first time Lebron had a low seed (21'), he lost in the 1st Round.
The only reason Lebron never had low seeds before that is because he waited 3 years to develop a veteran, high seed and good coach before entering his first playoffs in 2006.. Accordingly, his 3rd-year high seeds can't be compared to Jordan's 1st-year 8 seeds..
And by "development", I mean that Lebron and Zydrunas became all-stars in 05' - that's development... This all-star duo added a HOF coa
Do you not get bored?
If you spent as much time working on your poker game you'd be full Ike Haxton by now.
It has to be LeBron: more versatile, bigger and athletic and we now know that he will extend his career across more than two decades; playing thousands of All-NBA calibre minutes more than Jordan.
Yes, as a GM you need to build around him successfully and get a championship contender out on the floor around him within that first half-decade. Otherwise, he won't sit around and simply accept your incompetence. That seems like a fair trade IMO.
If you're worried about rebuilding around him, then may
A dynasty .
Hard to build one, with a guy like lebron winning 4 title in 21 years with 3 different teams.
6 titles in 7 years seem a dynasty to me, while the guy even retired twice lol.
Imagine if he didnt and play in a weak ass east conference for 10 years in a league like today ...
A dynasty .
Hard to build one, with a guy like lebron winning 4 title in 21 years with 3 different teams.
6 titles in 7 years seem a dynasty to me, while the guy even retired twice lol.
Imagine if he didnt and play in a weak ass east conference for 10 years in a league like today ...
It's 6 in 8 seasons, and yes of course it's a dynasty I don't think anyone is disputing that.
Why does Jordan get 6 in 8 and not 6 in 15 (or whatever) but Lebron gets 4 in 21 and not 4 in 9?
But seriously guys, don't forget that Jordan chucking bricks for a 37 win Washington team was better than what LeBron is doing right now.
