Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Dude gets shot and his absolute 1st instinct is to immediately crawl for the food he dropped. That's some sick **** right there.
It pretty on point although, for reasons I have already mentioned, I still think it’s wishful thinking America has real leverage.
I think fake outrage and threats to push Israeli opinion to get Bibi out is the way to go.
PS: in case people haven’t realized yet… don’t kill pasty Americans unless you REALLY want to piss Americans off.
Yeah, I agree. There's a prevalent view that Israel is an American proxy; they're not. Bibi especially is not. I think Biden has used what leverage he has and this is the result.
Yeah, I agree. There's a prevalent view that Israel is an American proxy; they're not. Bibi especially is not. I think Biden has used what leverage he has and this is the result.
His leverage are the weapons he is providing to Israel .
Let’s not forget we could have a ceasefire if Hamas released all the hostages . Sadly I’d be surprised if many are still alive
It pretty on point although, for reasons I have already mentioned, I still think it’s wishful thinking America has real leverage.
I think fake outrage and threats to push Israeli opinion to get Bibi out is the way to go.
PS: in case people haven’t realized yet… don’t kill pasty Americans unless you REALLY want to piss Americans off.
There is nothing to do because the Palestinians are giving the rest of the world absolutely nothing to work with. The rest of the world can criticize Israel all you want, but the real problem is Palestinian obstinance and refusal to make any sort of peace combined with a complete inability to form a functional society.
And the rest of the world is enabling this behavior with endless unconditional aid and refusal to hold them accountable for anything. Very dysfunctional.
First off, pretty much all US "aid" is using tax dollars to pay American companies to make weapons for other nations; on top of all the weapons Israel outright busy, so refusing aid would have negative consequences for the US economically.
Also, I am not sure the leverage issue is as simple as most of you seem to think it is. It might be the other way around. The US uses the carrot of aid/weapons to influence a lot of countries in the region. Not just Israel. If it starts making too many demands they may look to other suitors and the US is the one that loses leverage. It is a delicate balance.
Qatar is one of the biggest funders of Islamic terrorism in the world, and has been for a long time. And we give them tremendous amount of military aid and dont make any demands they stop funding terrorism. They are funding the military wing of Hamas right now as we speak, while another supposed ally of ours, Israel, is fighting a war with them.
In a sane world where you guys with all your faux moral outrage actually had first principles this should be a much bigger deal. But it isn't, because you guys have no first principles; you guys are all just putty being molded and it is ideology all the way down.
And this of course also is a pretty good demonstration of how moral outrage of peasants (like most of you) is completely manipulated for political reasons. None of you are outraged as Qatar because no one wants you to be. But they want you to be outraged at what is going on in Israel-Palestine for ends that have nothing to do with any first principle concerns for human well-being; so you are outraged.
First off, pretty much all US "aid" is using tax dollars to pay American companies to make weapons for other nations; on top of all the weapons Israel outright busy, so refusing aid would have negative consequences for the US economically. Also, I am not sure the leverage issue is as simple as most of you seem to think it is. It might be the other way around. The US uses the
Yeah this is something I just do not understand as well. I do believe the US has a large base their as well.
Yeah this is something I just do not understand as well. I do believe the US has a large base their as well.
Our elites believe the advantages of the current situation with Qatar outweighs the disadvantages. And it is such a universally held belief that elites make sure questioning it is not even part of the discourse. And the people being the sheeple they are dont even realize the complete moral inconsistency of being perpetually outraged over Israel-Palestine and completely agnostic over Qatar's actions.
You are all outraged over Israel-Palestine because propagandists think there is some advantage for their interests to make sure you are outraged. And you are all agnostic over stuff like this (which happens almost daily) because there is no-one who thinks there is any gain to be had by making it salient to the sheeple:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/isis-linke...
ISIS-linked rebels kill at least a dozen civilians near Congo's Ugandan border
First off, pretty much all US "aid" is using tax dollars to pay American companies to make weapons for other nations; on top of all the weapons Israel outright busy, so refusing aid would have negative consequences for the US economically. Also, I am not sure the leverage issue is as simple as most of you seem to think it is. It might be the other way around. The US uses the
You don't crush someone by giving them absolutely no way out.
You crush someone by showing surrender is better than the alternatives.
Right now Bibi is showing zero humanity and doing his very best to prove Hamas' point that surrender is worse than a fight to the death.
You don't crush someone by giving them absolutely no way out.
You crush someone by showing surrender is better than the alternatives.
Right now Bibi is showing zero humanity and doing his very best to prove Hamas' point that surrender is worse than a fight to the death.
This has been going on 80 years. This didn't start October 8th, 2023. The Palestinians have 80 years of giving the world nothing to work with, over a lot of different US/Israeli administrations that tried a lot of different tacts.
This has been going on 80 years. This didn't start October 8th, 2023. The Palestinians have 80 years of giving the world nothing to work with, over a lot of different US/Israeli administrations that tried a lot of different tacts.
Can't that be disputed? Didn't they try with Camp David? And wasn't it Israel's strategy to support the radicals to thwart the peace process?
This has been going on 80 years. This didn't start October 8th, 2023. The Palestinians have 80 years of giving the world nothing to work with, over a lot of different US/Israeli administrations that tried a lot of different tacts.
Doesn't mean they should die of starvation.
For your Congo comparison: In the event that the geopolitical significance of the jungles of the Congo led my tax dollars to help ISIS-linked rebels because USA was led to believe this group largely had the same morals as our allies, would make a good ally, and just wanted to live in peace, but they instead betrayed that trust and are using the funds to do the things mentioned in that article then I will be equally outraged.
If this wasn't the case then I will only be outraged that such a tragic event occurred, and I will not be outraged at the betrayal of trust.
His leverage are the weapons he is providing to Israel .
Let’s not forget we could have a ceasefire if Hamas released all the hostages . Sadly I’d be surprised if many are still alive
no we could not. you are simply uninformed or misinformed. Bibi and the Israelis have said even if the hostages come back they will continue murdering.
There is nothing to do because the Palestinians are giving the rest of the world absolutely nothing to work with. The rest of the world can criticize Israel all you want, but the real problem is Palestinian obstinance and refusal to make any sort of peace combined with a complete inability to form a functional society. And the rest of the world is enabling this behavior with
Palestinians are not going to agree to a peace without justice and freedom. nor should they. nor would it even work.
Can't that be disputed? Didn't they try with Camp David? And wasn't it Israel's strategy to support the radicals to thwart the peace process?
That is the narrative leftists like to promote. Given how narratives work, what are the odds this is actually true?
Do you really think if you got any of the big players involved, say Bill Clinton, and gave them truth serum they would say, "You know what, the Palestinians really wanted peace, but the damn Zionists just ****ed it all up." I don't for a second think this is what he would say.
I am not arguing Israel has been this great paragon of virtue. But I think the decades long strategy of unconditional aid and zero accountability for Palestinians while being extremely judgmental of Israel has gotten us to this current dynamic, where there is nothing to work with.
It would be one thing if this strategy was working, but it clearly isn't. Isn't that the definition of insanity, doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the same unworkable strategy and expecting a different result.
Palestinians are not going to agree to a peace without justice and freedom. nor should they. nor would it even work.
The Jews of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco all had to agree to peace without any justice or freedom. 99% of the time this is exactly what happens and it works.
What doesn't work is the current dynamic, where the rest of the world uses unconditional aid to prop up a completely unworkable insurgency by a completely non functional proto-state.
The Jews of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco all had to agree to peace without any justice or freedom. 99% of the time this is exactly what happens and it works.
What doesn't work is the current dynamic, where the rest of the world uses unconditional aid to prop up a completely unworkable insurgency by a completely non functional proto-state.
oh there are millions of captive Jews in all of those places?
If you are arguing all the Palestinians should leave like the Jews in every other Arab country were forced to and that would fix everything for everyone's benefit, then I won't challenge this.
The Palestinians are actually the ones insisting on living in "captivity" generationally, as they believe if they moved on it would end the dream of conquest of all Israel. They block any efforts to amend the UNRWA mandate for this exact reason.
All the rest of the world would have to do is say, "No, you cant live as permanent refugees on international aid on the borders of Israel while enacting a foreign funded insurgency," and the situation would resolve itself quickly, to the benefit of everyone.
But you go on thinking that we if we just keep this dynamic up and get the Jews to unilaterally modify their behavior it will eventually work out. And I will continue to not be surprised at all it isn't working, regardless of what the Jews do.
no we could not. you are simply uninformed or misinformed. Bibi and the Israelis have said even if the hostages come back they will continue murdering.
After the 90 day ceasefire yes but how many civilians could be saved with humanitarian ais during the ceasefire? Yes the reality is that the aid should get through anyways.
The reality is Hamas will never stop killing jews and Palestinians as well
What scares me is the USA is sending troops over to build that floating dock for humanitarian aid and those soldiers will be exposed badly to attacks which will lead the USA more into the conflict which I assume Bibi wants
