LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Neither PJ nor MJ built the bulls.
Jerry Krause built the bulls. Plain simple.
Jordan wanted to draft Joe Wolf instead of either Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Jordan also didn't like Toni Kukoc either because he hated Jerry Krause.
Proof here: https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jo...
Jerry Krause is probably one of the most important people to Jordan's success. If Jordan was given the reigns it would be a lot like the
You know, I really don’t disagree. The limp portrayal of an MJ with no agency denied at a chance of a 4 peat by evil Jerry Krause in the Last Dance is sad and unfair. Chicago fans subsequently booing his widow all very unseemly. Krause put the perfect players around MJ.
But Jackson, I mean…Jackson makes this all work imo. Jackson coached 20 seasons between 89 and 2010 and won 11 Titles. Bonkers. Another 5 conference finals. And never missed a playoffs.
This is a core piece of the debate. MJ was utterly great, but it really was the perfect platform.
Neither PJ nor MJ built the bulls.
Jerry Krause built the bulls. Plain simple.
Jordan wanted to draft Joe Wolf instead of either Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Jordan also didn't like Toni Kukoc either because he hated Jerry Krause.
Proof here: https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jo...
Jerry Krause is probably one of the most important people to Jordan's success. If Jordan was given the reigns it would be a lot like the
Wrong
Jordan's Dad built that Bulls team when his preordained sperm slipped one past the goalie inside Deloris
You know, I really don’t disagree. The limp portrayal of an MJ with no agency denied at a chance of a 4 peat by evil Jerry Krause in the Last Dance is sad and unfair. Chicago fans subsequently booing his widow all very unseemly. Krause put the perfect players around MJ.
But Jackson, I mean…Jackson makes this all work imo. Jackson coached 20 seasons between 89 and 2010 and won 11 Titles. Bonkers. Another 5 conference finals. And never missed a playoffs.
This is a core piece of the deba
PJ was a great manager of big egos.
But building the team means drafts / trades / free agent signings. He came in 1986 and made these moves:
1) Traded for the #5 pick in 1987 to get Scottie Pippen, who was the 2nd best player from that draft. Seattle got absolutely fleeced in that trade.
2) Still kept Bulls pick in 1987 and drafted Horace Grant #10.
Those 2 moves that year were just gigantic executive of the decade type moves.
Lesser but still important moves:
3) Traded for Cartwright which gave Bulls low post defence against bruising centers of the 90s.
4) Toni Kokuc
5) Dennis Rodman trade - However nobody wanted Rodman at the time.
6) Fired Doug Collins and elevated PJ
I think we can all agree if the Lakers lose tonight then Lebron isn't the GOAT.
It's worth noting, that if Durant doesn't create one if the most unbeatable teams ever by joining the Warriors, there's a very good chance LeBron has a 5th or an outside shot of even a 6th championship. LeBron was so good the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league joined forces to create easily the greatest superteam of this century.
You say this like the "GOAT" didn't join up with a top 3 player in the league himself five years earlier and get crushed anyway. It's not unfair when LeBron does it I guess (probably because the result is always so disappointing)
The difference is that when Jordan had unwinnable situations he lost in the first round, thereby preserving his 6-0 finals record that all Jordan worshippers jerk off over.
When prime LeBron James is given a garbage roster he makes the conference finals or NBA finals and then is criticized by the same Jordan worshippers for not being able to win.
This isn't hard to understand, but losing in the finals is objectively better than losing in the first or second round.
When MJ lost in 1st round twice in his first 2 season , LeBron didn’t even made the playofffs !
So I guess better not make the playoffs to preserve LeBron perfect record not losing either in the first round ?
And MJ lost in the first round vs the champion anyway !
So I guess LeBron got lucky to never have to play much of his career in though conference to reach so many finals and find excuses to say he lost more then mj in final because he was great not losing in first round vs real competition ?
See how that works ?
LeBron reach many finals because he never played in a conference has tough as mj !
Never !
Imagine watching Lebron's last two games and thinking Jordan was a better passer. LOL.
Don't claim "sample size" either, he does this all day every day.
Yeah all losses in the finals are conference championships, somewhat akin to Final Fours. It's a monster plus for LeBron, Magic and Kareem. Up against the super GOAT finals swoopers it pales a bit, but it seems too often treated like it's a diss. Nicklaus 19 runner-up majors is what, a disgrace?
When Brady was 4-2 in Superbowls vs Montana's 4-0, I don't think anyone thinks 4-0 > 7-3 but there might be a 49er fanatic twog floating around
I believe Lebron is undefeated in the PLAYIN game. G. Oat
Yeah all losses in the finals are conference championships, somewhat akin to Final Fours. It's a monster plus for LeBron, Magic and Kareem. Up against the super GOAT finals swoopers it pales a bit, but it seems too often treated like it's a diss. Nicklaus 19 runner-up majors is what, a disgrace?[/QUOTE]
It’s totally different .
Nicklaus was still competing vs the same and best field .
Lebron was hiding in the east with a super team -> there is a reason he lost more than wins ….
Funny th
When I hear LeBron stance saying not fair for LeBron because of tough competition in the final he had to face -> “hold my beer “says Tim Duncan !
On top of facing bloodbath west conference , Duncan had to face the “goat” in the final and still manage to win ?
Lebron stance just cry babies …
When Brady was 4-2 in Superbowls vs Montana's 4-0, I don't think anyone thinks 4-0 > 7-3 but there might be a 49er fanatic twog floating around
7 is higher then 4 .
What you think of the buffalo bill 0-4 ?
Do you consider them a championship team ?
Pretty amazing today we consider winning in the final the same as losing in the finals …
While bother to play it shrug
Jordan being the best "point guard" in 1989 is more indicative of how the game has evolved in the last 35 years.
Back in 1989, a good prototypical point guard was Mark Jackson. Someone who dribbled the ball up the court, looked to find teammates, and didn't really try to score for himself. This was considered "good" back then. If you were a GOOD SCORER in 1989 you played shooting guard, point guard was for passers only.
Fast forward to 2024, when all players are more capable scorers and shooters,
Huh ?
I thought magic and IT were great PG and good scorer .
Guess I was wrong .
How many title in the 80s between those 2 ?
Lebron would have zero rings if he doesn't make the "decision" to team-up with everyone.. No one else was teaming up from 2011-2016, so Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.
That's the historical record... Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the;"decision" to use a cheat code.. He gave up on the chemi
If Jordan played with the garbage LeBron had his first run in Cleveland for his entire career he'd probably have 0 rings.
It's hilarious that when LeBron rotted in Cleveland and had zero rings people wanted to use that against him. Meanwhile every other all time great with rings got to play with other Hall of Famers.
But yea LeBron should have just played his entire career with trash teammates bc he got drafted on to a team with a completely incompetent front office. Makes total sense.Almost as much sense as the pretzel logic of "derp derp losing in the first round is better than losing in the finals".
I mean Kobe forced a draft night trade to play with prime Shaq but God forbid LeBron leaves a team that literally wins 20 games without him.
I actually think Jordan was the better player but the arguments people use against LeBron are pure comedy at this point.
its worth noting that Lebron had 0 titles and 1 finals appearance before stacking the deck in his favor by teaming up with 3 superstars who were all in their primes at a time when most other teams had one star (Dwight, Dirk, Melo) or two stars (Kobe/Pau, Nash/Amare) or 3 really old stars (50 win Celtics). It's very selective LebronFan memory to only remember 2016 offseason but completely forget about the 2010 "Decision" which is what started the arms race in the first place.
LeBron sent Garnett and Allen to Boston? That's news to me.
Yeah Jordan had so little "help" that his "help" won 55 games without him and Scottie Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting in his lone year as number 1 option.
Don't waste people's time with this garbage.
And dwade was a final mvp without LeBron , something mj never had to work with either ….
Why bring this up?
Anthony Davis 2018 -> mvp3 like pippen as well , nba1,def1, dpoy3 in 2018 ….
No wonder lebron won a title with him ?
If Jordan played with the garbage LeBron had his first run in Cleveland for his entire career he'd probably have 0 rings.
It's hilarious that when LeBron rotted in Cleveland and had zero rings people wanted to use that against him. Meanwhile every other all time great with rings got to play with other Hall of Famers.
But yea LeBron should have just played his entire career with trash teammates bc he got drafted on to a team with a completely incompetent front office. Makes total sense.Almost as mu
As if that was not the case for Mj in the entire 80s????
Mj pushed his teammates instead and made Grant and pippen champions.
Mj was not particularly loved for it but he made them winners !
I will always give credits to Grant and pippen for doing the work , but they certainly wernt hof talent when they got drafted …..
Grant still waiting …
And dwade was a final mvp without LeBron , something mj never had to work with either ….
Why bring this up?
Anthony Davis 2018 -> mvp3 like pippen as well , nba1,def1, dpoy3 in 2018 ….
No wonder lebron won a title with him ?
Are you capable of following an argument or are you just incoherently babbling?
My post was in response to TWOG's claim that Jordan had the "least help" ever.
If your team wins 55 games without you, you can't ever say that you had the "least help" ever. It's complete bullshit.
You claimed LeBron was the first and only player to form a team with "3 franchise players" when the Celtics literally had that exact criteria 3 years before "the decision."
My original post references only the 2011 to 2016 period and says that Lebron was the only guy teaming up during this period:
"No one else was teaming up from 2011-2016, so Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.
The 08' Celtics have nothing to do with the team-ups that occurred much later when only 1 guy was doing it for 6 years straight before Durant finally responded in 2017.. The 08' Celtics also didn't play the 11' Heat - the Heat played the fossil and massive underdog version of the Celtics big 3.. much worse than the 14' Heat.
Kevin Garnett is historically underrated because he spent his prime in dogshit Minnesota and didn't win a title with Sam Cassell as his second best player. LeBron didn't want to waste his prime like that too.
Remember that we're talking about years that I watched - Garnett was not "Garnett" when he came back from his injury in 2010 - he was a shell and the entire team was old.. Pierce, Allen and Horace Grant isn't a sufficient cast for the "Truth" to have a viable contender.. Lebron's best chance was to make it through the 2010 East and face Kobe who was also old - he could barely finish those Finals viably and peak Lebron could've worn him down.. But it would've taken an "assassin" mentality (think "no mercy" from Karate Kid) so I don't think peak Lebron had what it takes to beat an old Kobe, let alone a young one.. peak Lebron was a massive choker.
Phil inherited a championship team because the 89' Bulls nearly made the Finals and were the only team that won any games against the Pistons during that run - the Pistons were 11-0 against everyone but 4-2 against the Bulls and most people don't realize that Pippen didn't play in Game 6 of that series, just like he missed Game 7 the following year in 1990 - he "migrained" 2 years in a row!
Most people don't know that about the 89' series (that pippen didn't play in the final game) - this hurts Doug Collins because people give Phil a pass for losing in 1990 due to the "mirgraine", even though Collins actually experienced the same choke from Pippen in 89' when he missed Game 6.. Pippen also had 7 points in Game 5 and averaged 9.7 on 40% for the series..
(edit: pippen played 1 minute in Game 6, aka "migraine".. his first one.. boxscore here).
Even though the Bulls were a low seed and 1-man team in 89', they were still a championship team because of how well MJ was playing - he led the Bulls to historic upset over the #1 SRS Cavs who had 3 all-stars plus Ron Harper (20/5/5).. Then he upset Ewing's Knicks.. Of course 10 points from pippen in Games 5 and 6 easily wins the ECF vs Pistons, while the Finals would be an easy matchup vs the injured Lakers (no Magic, Worthy or Scott).
Are you capable of following an argument or are you just incoherently babbling?
My post was in response to TWOG's claim that Jordan had the "least help" ever.
If your team wins 55 games without you, you can't ever say that you had the "least help" ever. It's complete bullshit.
The Pippen-led Bulls had not developed a 55-win record from scratch by toiling away in previous years with weaker records and eventually becoming a good team..
it was JORDAN that was a good enough to be a franchise player and build a team, not Pippen... it took 40/6/8 and "the shot" against the #1 SRS Cavs to achieve historic upset and make the ECF, which built the Bulls into contenders.. Could Pippen do that because that's what it took to build the Bulls from 85-90' - it took the GOAT like fighting through injury to make the playoffs and playoff history in 1986, or the historic upsets during the 89' run, or the historic 88' season of 50 wins with zero cast or coaching (dpoy/mvp season).
Otoh, history shows that a Pippen-led team that developed from lottery to 50 wins could never exist because Pippen was averaging 8 and 9 ppg in the playoffs until he was 26 years old.
So it was Jordan that built the Bulls into 3-peat champions and then told the cast to try it alone in 94'.. Opponents no longer had to circle their calendar or plan what to tell their grandkids - no one gave a sh** about playing the Bulls - it was a massive letdown to see the Bulls on the other end of the court without the GOAT..,. But the cat was out of the bag in 95' and the "real" bulls without MJ were barely .500 before he returned to bring another 3-peat
The 08' Celtics have nothing to do with the team-ups that occurred much later when only 1 guy was doing it for 6 straight years - only Lebron hand-picked preseason favorites from 2011 to 2016 before Durant finally responded in 2017.
The 08' Celtics didn't play the 11' Heat - the Heat played the fossil and massive underdog version of the Celtics' big 3.. They were much older and worse than the 14' Heat.
Ultimately, Jordan beat Isiah, Dumars and Rodman when they were 27-29 years old in 1991, while KD, Pierce and Allen were 32-34 when Lebron beat them in 2011 and he needed Wade to lead the team in scoring.. That's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring when Jordan finally beat the Pistons in 91'.
If Jordan played with the garbage LeBron had his first run in Cleveland for his entire career he'd probably have 0 rings.
Jordan would never have "the worst Finals team ever" with the East all-star center and this acquisition:
05' HUGHES....... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN......... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5... No All-D
Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that... Otoh, Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position turned Hughes, Westbrook, Ingram or Wade into spot-up shooters, so they cannot develop into "pippens"... Lebron's skillset has all-time bad chemistry - it's the primary reason he's inferior to Jordan and it's skillset based - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill, touch or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball) limits capacity for ball movement and elite chemistry.
History shows that despite having coach Mike Brown, a 2x all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition, the Cavs were only a 45-win team in Year 5 (2008) until Lebron got the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needs to be MVP and have a real contender in 09'.. Then he added Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite and still found a way to blow it.. Then super-teams didn't work the following year and have mostly lost ever since.
.
2010 Wade......... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe.......... 21 PER.... 4.1 BPM
Yeah all losses in the finals are conference championships, somewhat akin to Final Fours.
When did Lebron's "Finals streak" begin?
It began after his "decision" to take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team and one of those 1st options was the next-best player in the league - Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48, so he was the #2 producer in the league.. He was a Kobe-level player and actually better than Kobe at that time (see stats above).
But ultimately, it's a disgrace that fans think lebron he needs a Kobe-level sidekick and were disappointed with Wade when he fell to Pippen-caliber from 2013-2016 (20/5/5 and all-star).. Prime Wade was overkill because why should Lebron need a Kobe-level player to win?.. Why would fans get mad when Wade fell to Pippen-caliber from 13-16'?
Yeah all losses in the finals are conference championships, somewhat akin to Final Fours.
If you lose the Finals, it means you wouldn't make the Finals from the other conference, so Finals appearances are conference-dependent... Accordingly, winning the Finals is all that matters to confirm that you beat the entire league, not just a conference, especially a conference that you diluted by putting the top 1st options on your team.. Real fans could care less about Lebron's obviously manufactured Finals streak where he put all the good players on his team and then faced diluted rookie teams with zero chance and zero talent.. Np one cares about lebron beating Rose or Hibbert when he should've been facing Wade or Bosh.
