LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Fwiw Murray destroys Jokic's goat case for same reason everyone else's is destroyed:

i.e. Murray & Porter with 24 ppg and "taking over" & isolation "that guy" game-winners is too much help compared to Jordan, who always carried the scoring & clutch load.

Everyone in history needed teammates to carry equal scoring loads and "take over", except MJ, who always won without elite producers or teammates "taking over".... only MJ took over for 6 chips - that's why he's goat.

Scoring isn't the only thing that matters, Jokic had a dominant series. Murray was pretty bad for most of the games but did hit 2 crazy game winners

Murray averaged 7.2 assists, so that's more than Pippen, while Porter Jr. and Gordon averaged 8 and 10 rebounds, which is more than Horace.

So Jokic had more help in literally every category, but I don't brag about his superior rebounding, passing or spacing help because those are role player categories - every team has players to handle these things - otoh, the stars on the top of the roster are the difference-makers because their production style dictates brand of ball and chemistry, which determines how much impact these role players have.

Btw, Lebron has many seasons where he was 3rd or 4th on his own team in rebounds because he had so many good rebounders like Haslem, Bosh, Love, Tristan, Varejao, Zydrunas, AD, and many, many more.. Meanwhile, all his sidekicks averaged more APG than Pippen (Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook, Rondo).

Ultimately, great scoring help like Murray that can "take over" is the only thing that every star in history needed, except the GOAT - everyone needed great-scoring help like Murray except Jordan.

So you can keep saying that scoring isn't the only thing that matters, except it's the only category where high levels requires stars - scoring is the "star" category, which is why MJ needed the least star help of anyone ever - he carried the scoring load far more than anyone ever did, so he could win with a bunch of defenders and hustlers - no one is remotely close to his level of carrying the scoring load (defeating max defensive attention).

Porter averaged 22.8 on 70% TS... and 8.4 RPG.... That's better than Pippen ever played and Porter Jr was Jokic's 3rd option, not his 2nd like pippen.

So again, everyone needed more help than MJ because MJ achieved goat scoring levels AND goat brand of ball simultaneously, aka he's the only guy to win titles as scoring champ or usage champ... (edit: shaq and kareem won titles as scoring champ in their peak seasons of 00' and 71', so their peak burden to win a ring was MJ's standard burden to win a r

Any team can play break-even .500 basketball so they're even through 3 quarters on average, at which point a goat closer like MJ wins every game in the 4th quarter.

That was the 90's Bulls model for every game and occasionally the current Nuggets have to resort to this approach when Jokic is being held to 22 points and 7 TO's like he was last night.

So Murray has shown us that the 90's Bulls were garbage team of role players that played break-even basketball without MJ (34-31 in 95' when the cat was out of the bag) and then MJ returned to win every game in the 4th and 3-peat again.

I can't believe you typed that many words to slurp LeBron for topping a stat you then explain isn't actually very good

well-oiled machine tho

Sure Lebron probably also felt he wasn't playing well. This is universal across sports, but when the other team gameplans against you well, even if you play exactly as expected based on your skills, you're not going to feel like you played well. Lebron was certainly frustrated that he couldn't dissect the Mavs' defense.

And Lebron did get better - the same strategy wouldn't have worked on him - and he's rarely had such poor spacing again. Another subtle change is that Lebron now understands that he has to statpad (or be aggressive) in situations where it doesn't make a big difference - i.e. if decisions are close in terms of basketball terms, maximizing stats and keeping himself more involved is the better meta move to keep people off his back.

None of this is to say Lebron was particularly bad from the standpoint of how his play impacted his team. Kobe put up worse overall stats and his team, who won 1 fewer game than the Heat in the regular season, was swept by the Mavs and no one said anything about how Kobe choked, because well, he's not Lebron and also he kept chucking inefficiently to put up enough points.

Spo's best regular season record without Lebron is 53-29, second best is 48-34. His overall playoff series record without Lebron is 9-8. I think he's an above average coach but there isn't much evidence that he's a great coach. Also if he's indeed a great coach, the Heat have not done a particular good job in terms of roster construction. With that said, that might still be better than what Lebron's had in Cleveland and LA overall.

Definitely, I assume this has to do with some kind of PTSD from his first Cavs stint, not to mention the Heat using amnesty on Miller, which did nothing from a basketball perspective and was entirely about saving on taxes, all after Lebron took a paycut to help the Heat build a better team around him. Lebron understood from that point that one-sided loyalty is unlikely to be reciprocated.

I don't think the criteria he's using are reasonable at all. For those that didn't watch, these were the criteria:

10 points for DPOY
1 point each for PPG/APG/RPG
10 points for All-defensive selection
Win Shares as points
PER as points
BPM as points
VORP as points
5 points for leading the league in points, rebounds or assists
5 points for All-Star Game MVP

I don't think I need to explain why this is bad, regardless of the results, right?

We done with the 2010’s

Video shows Lebron threatening a woman

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/smjDWXu7T...

Westbrook could never get away with that

Again, you're misunderstanding the evidence here. The variance inherent in stats like this makes Lebron's dominance even more impressive, because the prior is already that he's the best player and his two non-overlapping 5-year spans are literally the top 2 (and given that these 2 are also the #1 and #2 in minutes, in terms of value, the gap is even larger). This is fairly strong evidence that Lebron's by far the best player. And different methodologies leading to similar conclusions (coach-adjusted, non-box informed, etc) add to the confidence. In other words, the evidence is consistent with him being a huge outlier even among the best players of his generation, rather than simply the best player. We do not have comparable evidence for MJ compared to his peers.

For example, a random World Series title is somewhat less impressive than a random NBA title simply because the variance is higher. But a baseball team that's completely crushed the regular season for multiple years in a row (thus our prior is that this is already the best team) and winning 3 titles in a row is more impressive than a similarly dominant NBA team that winning 3 titles in a row and is demonstrative of a larger gap between the team and the rest of the league because it's substantially harder to overcome the variance in baseball.

Kobe simply misperceived what he thought she wanted - he didn't blatantly threaten physical harm - and Lebron threatened violence because she was saying he was crying too much and doing the boo-hoo motion with her hands - I think Lebron had another lady thrown out of the game for that once.. So he really hates being called a crybaby and "soft".. that angers him more than losing or being a bricklayer for 4 decades

What's this nonsense about it being a goat achievement to win with 3 different teams?.. He mostly lost at every stop despite hand-picking the preseason favorite each time - he never had a stretch of mostly winning with any cast - each stop of mostly loses only adds to the now-massive sample size of him falling short of 3-peat or dynasty or 70 wins, aka goat-caliber stuff - he simply isn't capable of goat-caliber winning regardless of cast and his record of mostly losing at every stop coupled with worst-ever Finals record makes him the biggest loser of all-time... Oh, and he's a crybaby and soft (since that angers him)

A poster on another site brings up a great point about how the Lakers led for nearly 70% of the minutes in this series but still lost nearly every game, which makes it one of the biggest choke-jobs ever (mostly winning every game but still finding a way to lose every game)

Twog equating (actually saying it was worse) Lebron startling a heckler by moving his body quickly to Kobe’s sexual assault accusation says all you need to know about the guy.

Why can't younger fans accept the word of older guys that saw both guys play

You never saw Jordan, so you don't realize how great he was, while we saw both Jordan and Lebron, so we can gauge who was better - nearly anyone who saw both think Jordan was easily better..

And it isn't just based on superior winning or superior individual dominance/production rate... it's just the fact that Jordan was bigger world-wide - Lebron is pretty big and famous but nothing like Jordan, who is like Babe Ruth or Ali..

That's why no one cared about playing the 94' Bulls - no Ali, no Babe Ruth= big letdown... Once opponents got over it, it was embarassment in the playoffs and barely.500 in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat

Lebron is 1/4 with AD, or 1/4 with Love, or 2/4 with Wade, so he cannot have stretches of mostly winning like 6 chips in 7 years for MJ - 21 years confirms that Lebron cannot have dynasties, 3 peats or 6 chips with any lineup, aka objectively inferior to MJ

He cannot have "unbeatable" teams that mostly win and he actually mostly loses with every cast - it's night and day.. He mostly loses regardless of cast because of his worst-ever chemistry, turnovers and clutch play (mostly loses close games).

turning towards someone from 5 feet away is threatening violence? cool story.

You realize Love didn't even play in the first finals right? And that Irving only played 1 game?

Besides he never lost in the finals with AD and as you've taught us that's way better than losing in the finals!

I have no idea what happened with Kobe - I just thought I read that Kobe was forced to apologize and admit that he 'saw it differently' than she did or something like that.. Lebron apparently needs this same counseling and professional guidance in this area.. He's unhinged and then tries to get approval from the opposing team after the incident.

Warriors were 1st timers and extremely beatable in 2015, which is why they nearly lost despite Lebron playing "Iverson-ball" (low efficiency chucking and no defense).. This was Lebron's 3rd time shooting under 40% as 1st option in a loss (so the loss could be blamed on bad efficiency), and he got single-coverage for the entire series against a much shorter defender.

Btw, the 2016 Warriors were like a well-oiled machine that got shut off suddenly with the Draymond suspension - no chance to get revved up and humming again in time - just a horrible intervention by Silver - unreal.

So Draymond missed critical time in 2016 and Durant got hurt in 2019, so these missed chips would give Curry 6 rings like MJ... (and don't cry about KD's collusion when Lebron had 6-year monopoly on colluding and hand-picking the preseason favorite from 11-16' - someone had to respond and durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to do so).

It's disqualifying to win less than 60 with AD as a teammate, let alone win less than 50 (yikes), or miss play-ins, or be favored on-paper for only 2 of 5 preseasons with AD - and generally have weak teams and perennial underdogs with AD - all of this is disqualifying... AD is the only sidekick that is a "franchise player" and elite producer, while every other team has "normal" casts with 1 franchise player (edit: bucks)... Ultimately, only Lebron avoided "normal" casts of 1 franchise player by forming teams with 2 or 3 franchise players for the majority of his career (2011-2017, 2020-2024).. He also had all-star sidekicks many other years in between (05', 09', 18').

Ultimately, everyone in history had teammates that "took over" like Jamal Murray just did against the Lakers - the only exception is the GOAT - only the GOAT lacked teammates that could "take over", yet despite this weaker help, he won twice as many rings as the best player as anyone in 3-pointer history (modern era)... (it can easily be argued that duncan and lebron only have 3 rings as the best player).

Btw, it's a statistical fact that Lebron cannot carry weak help over top teams - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades).. He can't carry weak help over top teams because he's too ball-dominant at very high scoring levels (09' ECF), or he shoots horrifically at carry-job VOLUME due to the additional jumpshooting required (15' Finals).. This is the historical record.
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Lebron's relevancy officially over + MJ still leads latest goat poll = MJ survived Lebron

Scoring 40k points was Lebron's peak relevancy at old age, so MJ's advantage should increase back to previous norms from here.

Ultimately, the Klutch Sports campaign was merely a short-term shock to the basketball economy and everything will return to long-term equilibrium... hoops economics 101 (MJ will always be goat)

lmao@ acting like the Draymond ejection is why they lost. They were 3-3 with him on the court that series and lost game 7 at home.
That moron went around kicking people all post season with his general goon behavior. Silver didn't even intervene the suspension was automatic from racking up so many flagrants.
Green misses one game and that's a huge deal. Love who you tried telling me is some great player misses the entire series (the fact you can't even admit you were wrong about this tells me all I need to know about you), Irving misses all but one game and that means nothing. Great stuff as usual.

Ah yes the weak warriors who won the championship and then won 73 games- got it. More classic stuff. That's a very weak team indeed. The fact Lebron managed to win 2 games that series with that cast of jokers is actually very impressive. Even Jordan doesn't win that series .

And actually Lebron responded to Boston forming their super team after rotting with trash for 7 years. And he didn't jump on a 73 win team. As usual your "facts" are severely lacking.

We've also seen so called super teams fail miserably- take the Harden Durant Kyrie Nets for example. That blew up spectacularly. Miami worked specifically bc Wade and James aren't selfish.

You might argue Duncan and Lebron have 3 rings as the best player on their own team- but it's not clear cut. What is clear cut is your number 2 Kobe absolutely has 2 rings as the best player on his own team. Of course you don't realize this bc you think Shaq finally hit his stride as a 38 year old with the Cavs.

Win less than 60 with AD is a failure? You're referring to the AD made of glass who actually played most of the season for the first time since the bubble season this year?

and this is the core of the problem with so many MJ people. No matter who comes along and how great they are they'll never give those players an honest assesment and they'll spew comical nonsense about those players.. If they're anywhere near Jordan they'll try and tear them down. When someone clearly better than Jordan eventually comes along they'll completely deny it.