Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
You don't get to knowingly walk and protest with terrorist sympathizers and claim you don't support terrorists.
For the same reasons "the very fine people" that marched with neo-Nazis in Charlottsville don't get to claim they don't support neo-Nazis.
Ooh let's see how micro react you are comparing these people to right wingers!
Anyone who had an "allegiance" with the Nazis in WW2, I'd have been pretty ok with calling my enemy is the thing.
It's not with Hamas. You'll notice no one you're talking about ever says "Hamas".
It's such a symmetry. Supporters of Israel don't think they should be assumed to support every bomb, but you don't allow that supporters of Palestinians might not support 10/7.
You don't get to knowingly walk and protest with terrorist sympathizers and claim you don't support terrorists.
For the same reasons "the very fine people" that marched with neo-Nazis in Charlottsville don't get to claim they don't support neo-Nazis.
Do you get to fly an Israeli flag without supporting the killing of 40000 people and half the homes in Gaza? Victor says no. He's the mirror image of Mets on this.
You don't get to knowingly walk and protest with terrorist sympathizers and claim you don't support terrorists.
So if you went to an antinuclear rally in the 1980s, would that make you a Trotskite, since the Socialist Workers Party was there? But wait, the staunch Stalinist Progressive Labor Party might be there too, and the Maoist RCP, making you a Trot and Stalinist at the same time. And the social democratic DSA was there too. . .
You haven't proven the encampments even have Hamas supporters, much less that most people feel that way.
Look at the group statements and demands of the encampments. It's divestment. That's what "most" people are for.
Democrats are gonna pay dearly for this. Texas and Florida have done the right thing and destroyed these encampments. The Democratic states have let these criminals do what they want as they usually do. This is a disaster for Biden and his administration.
Also, notice you aren't seeing this happen in a small town.
You have to have a University. It's been very active in Humbolt which is a pretty low University to Town ratio. There's an encampment at the University of Vermont and hardly anyone lives in that whole state.
I don't doubt this will hurt democrats. But it might not be enough to make up for the damage the Republicans have done by becoming religious fanatics who think raped 10 year olds need have the baby and frozen zygots have souls.
I don't think you're quite understanding it, but it's not what you'd call support. It is something like solidarity I guess, but the "don't speak out against the resistance" is basically the mirror image of people on the Israel side who won't speak ill of John Hagee or Luciom or Bibi DURING WAR TIME kind of thing. It's a pledge of allegiance is all - and the way I mean it itt,
no its called critical support. I can support Hamas in this endeavor and still be critical of them.
You are claiming this as proof of supporting Hamas? Nonsense, it's a vague term. I'm pro resistance, but not pro Hamas.If you've ever been to a demonstration you know what a cacophony of voices they are. You haven't even made an attempt to prove that "most" protestors support Hamas. This is the hasbara talking -- keep bringing it back to Hamas.The only thing close to supportin
the Resistance factions have consolidated under Hamas at this point. if you support the Resistance then you support Hamas on some level.
that ofc doesnt mean that we cosign every thing they have done or stand for or their ideology.
I love that whole area from shasta to redding to Humboldt to Susanville.
I also keep forgetting to add a D in the name and I lived there.
I love that whole area from shasta to redding to Humboldt to Susanville.
I also keep forgetting to add a D in the name and I lived there.
I hope you mean not inclusive of Redding. Redding sucks.
What are these resistance factions you speak of, I've been off campus a while.
Victor's a lot smarter than you and he wants to keep saying you support murdering Gazan babies and you've said as much about the bombing or Bibi in WARTIME. And he's actually talking about what he doesn't support and you're being a childish idiot.
But, like with a lot of posts from Israel supporters itt, that post of Victor's was culty. Flag waving sucks.
Do you understand what I'm talking about when I'm saying you love struggle sessions?
well, yes there's nothing good about redding unless you like 102 degree midnights but i guess it was the center point of the area that I grew up in and Shasta was right up the road from there.
Al Qassam (Hamas)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Fatah Martyrs Brigade (which has been split from the PLO political wing at least in Gaza)
PFLP (secular Marxist)
DFLP (secular Marxist that split from PFLP some years back)
and then their is some Committee for the other resistance forces which I dont really track or understand.
fwiw, my info mainly comes from Jon Elmer from Electronic Intifada who is a Canadian that lived in Rafah and the West Bank in the last 20 years.
and also the videos of joint operations between different factions and evidence that they their share weaponry and videographers.
But, like with a lot of posts from Israel supporters itt, that post of Victor's was culty. Flag waving sucks.
its not culty. critical support is not culty.
During my drive home from work listened to an interesting podcast from the son of a Hamas bigwig who defected to Israel. He brought up a lot of interesting things about the Palestinian resistance that dont ever reach Western audiences because it isn't convenient to the narrative.
He said he grew up during the 1st Infintada in the West Bank and he says the first thing the leadership did was close down all the schools and tell all the kids to go throw rocks at Israeli soldiers instead. He says a lot of his friends got shot throwing rocks; and at the time he didn't know it, but as an adult he learned that the kids getting shot was actually the goal of the exercise. As having kids getting shot helped galvanize outside support for the cause. And it worked so well, Palestinian leadership, including Hamas, has been following this protocol since. Send out kids to get shot, take lots of pictures for foreign audience, grossly exaggerate numbers, galvanize foreign support, use moral leverage to get favorable terms for cease fire, rinse and repeat.
He also says that another thing about the Palestinian resistance that Westerners dont realize is that at the end of the day it is a business. And starting with Arafat (who he refers as The Egyptian Conman) through the current Hamas leadership, Palestinian leaders have been following the same business plan for decades. The basic business plan is forment unrest, and then promise to step in and restore calm in exchange for massive aid "for the people," where a lot of it gets directly pocketed.
He also said that Westerners dont understand the original objection that Arabs have towards the Israeli state and more generally Zionism; and that the main objection is religious in nature. He said it is an affront to Muslims to have a Jewish state dominating the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. He says Westerners dont realize how important it is to have religious purity in Islamic holy sites. For example, most Westerns dont know that non believers are not even allowed in Mecca at all.
The entire "Palestinian State" narrative is basically a false one that was constructed for Western audiences, and that when he was growing up it was never a talking point at all. The talking point was always how Israel was defiling the mosque and insulting Islam. (As an aside, most Westerns dont realize that Israeli allegedly attacking Muslims at the mosque was an important proximate cause for 10/7 from the Palestinian point of view)
Although holding to the adage that if you tell a lie long enough you start believing it yourself, by this point the Palestinians (especially the younger ones) probably really do believe they have spent the last 80 years trying to form a state and Israel has denied them.
I got about 1/3 through the podcast, and off the top of my head these were the most interesting things to come out of it. I'll listen more tomorrow and add if anything interesting that comes up.
