LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Prime version of Lebron only led Jordan in APG, DREB, and also TS due to less ball movement (drive-heavy attack vs jumpshooting/ball movement), while MJ led the rest like PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TO's, FT %, ORTG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, and raptor.. Jordan also led jumpshooting production & efficiency (ball movement, chemistry), clutch-time production & efficiency, game-winner frequency & efficiency, young player development/statistical growth/elevation.

Btw, Lebron stunk in the 2013 Finals because the Spurs let him shoot jumpshots like a toddler and beginner - it was a disgrace and embarrassing because it actually worked - the open jumper strategy shut down Lebron with 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% wasn't sufficient thru 6 and required Ray Allen to force game 7.. Lebron had a zero plus-minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor - he's the only FMVP where his team didn't win when he was on the floor.

Ultimately, Lebron couldn't make the Finals in 09' or 10' with homecourt and a Year 7 organic juggernaut, or normal" casts of 1 franchise player, so he obtained better casts of 3 franchise players (super-team) and still mostly lost with each cast - he never had a stretch of mostly winning with any cast, aka the "bron-ball" skillset mostly loses, regardless of cast... It's become clear that the "heliocentric" or "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it lacks the capacity for great fits or chemistry development, as required for a great-performing cast, aka great team.. The story of Lebron's career are his underperforming casts within his "down-hill" skillset and brand of ball (not 5-man basketball).

In contrast to the ball-dominance and "down-hill" skillset, there are fundamental bigs like Duncan, Kareem, Hakeem and Jokic, or expert jumpshooters like MJ, Curry, Kobe and Bird - these skillsets drop 40 while the ball moves and therefore don't impose spot-up roles, which allows great chemistry development as required for a great-performing cast, aka great team/dynasty.. History confirms this superior winning of jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe, MJ, Bird, Dirk, Tatum and Kawhi, since they have a 21-7 Finals record vs 10-15 for ball-dominators like Magic, Lebron, Luka, Oscar, Harden, Westbrook, and CP3.

Luka is about to lose in the Finals and Lebron is 22-33 in the Finals or 20-21 with "super-teams" (excluding (07', 15', 18')

So Lebron is a loser on the championship level (a loser), regardless of cast.

We saw Curry win 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, while MJ and Kobe 3-peated - so they proved that they could mostly win with a cast, while Lebron never mostly won with a cast, which proves that he mostly loses regardless of cast..

Accordingly, history shows that the superior chemistry generated by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs yields stretches of mostly winning, while Leborn's "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and mostly loses regardless of cast.. A worst-ever Finals record over massive sample confirms that "bron-ball" isn't winning basketball.

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PLAYOFFS

86' McHale....... 25 on 58%
86' Bird............. 26 on 52%

11' Wade.......... 25 on 49%
11' Lebron........ 24 on 47%

16' Lebron........ 26 on 53%
16' Kyrie'........... 25 on 48%

20' AD................ 28 on 55%
20' Lebron'........ 28 on 53%

89' Dumars FMVP

07' Parker FMVP

06' Wade FMVP

15' Iguodala FMVP

09' Kobe FMVP

88' Worthy FMVP

When did Pippen provide near-equal help to the 1st option and dominate or win FMVP like other sidekicks?

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a sidekick to average 25 or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and never averaged more than 21 ppg..

Accordingly, Pippen is the only guy that relies on ring count to be considered a great sidekick and not dominant performance like other winning sidekicks.

No one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen and had their non-elite production obscured by the winning spotlight more than Pippen, so he's the most overrated player of all-time.

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Chris Broussard has become a massive traitor

He's no longer on team MJ and is now a Klutch minion in disguise - he now calls Jordan and Kobe "just scorers" (classic Klutch propaganda).

Broussard also says that guys like Kobe, Kareem, or even Clyde Drexler aren't on the "best sidekick" list because they were 1st options for the "majority" of their careers, but then he puts perennial 1st option and FMVP Wade on the sidekick list and ranks him below Pippen..

This is obviously absurd because in addition to being FMVP in 2006, Wade was considered equal or better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010, while being 1st option over Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs and when Lebron finally got past Boston that year.. So how can Drexler be immune from the sidekick list but not Wade?.. It's absurd and a clear-cut attempt to put Pippen over Wade and therefore Lebron over Jordan.. the clip is here.

Of course, he makes the classic Lebron fan mistake by assuming that a loss means the player didn't have his "pippen" to save him even though Pippen had horrible stats and was statistically-carried in literally every series... For example, players like Ant need to learn how to carry KAT's 19 ppg, inconsistency and weak mentality just like Jordan carried these things for Pippen.. Pippen averaged 18 ppg during his playoff prime (90-98'), which included many "migraines", mental issues, inconsistency, and worst-ever efficiency.. Pippen had the worst shooting splits ever for a run of 15 games and 35 MPG (here), while his true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except when he had no burden in 89' and his Portland years, or 91' (the only playoff run where he didn't wet the bed in a series).

And back to the "just a scorer" lie - Broussard says that MJ and Kobe were just scorers that didn't control possessions like Luka or Lebron.. This is a misunderstanding of basketball because they were elite ball-dominators that controlled possessions when needed and led their teams in assists for most playoff runs.. However, this ball-dominant, "down-hill" skillset often imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball or the best brand of ball... So in addition to ball-dominance, MJ and Kobe used expert jumpshooting skill, touch and footwork to play off-ball in the "possession-closer" role - this greater offensive diversity allowed better fits, while also allowing the ball to move so the team could develop great chemistry as needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team/dynasty.
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opponents were no longer facing Ali or Babe Ruth when they faced the 94' Bulls, so no one gave a crap about playing them.. This is similar to the narrative earlier this season when Austin Reaves led the Lakers to a destruction of the Celtics in Boston without AD or Lebron - the narrative was that Boston wasn't up for the game, which was entirely true.. So consider that Pippen faced an entire season of this with no Ali for opponents to circle on their calendars and plan what they would tell grandkids - no need for that in 94'... So everyone knew the bubble would eventually burst and it did in the playoffs and following season - the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat capacity... Pippen could never build a 50-win team from scratch and was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever (3-peat dynasty), which he destroyed to borderline .500 in less than 18 months.. This confirmed that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

Having a better Free throw percentage because of better ball movement might be the best post yet.

fallguy - Thoughts on actual real expert jump shooters this season?

Curry/Paul/Thompson didn't make the playoffs
Durant/Booker swept in the first round
Demar - Missed playoffs

at this point in the playoffs, everyone is out including the ball-dominators - the only exception are the actual Finals participants - everyone else is at home.

and most everyone you mentioned won at the highest level at one point, but is now on their way out.. This is a sign that expert jumpshooting skill is a dying art and a rare art to begin with...

off-ball and quicker pull-ups off-the-catch is going away for the top players because the rules make it too easy to play "easy"-ball - a
stat-padding brand that sacrifices brand of ball and certain fits for personal stats... it isn't 5-man basketball, but it's the best way to accumulate triple-double stats..

not posted by fallguy

Lebron's slightly higher TS than Jordan's is due to his drive-heavy attack, which has higher efficiency for all players, and this higher efficiency on the bulk of Lebron's shots offsets his lower efficiency on jumpshooting and FT's.

But Lebron's small edge in TS comes at the expense of brand of ball - his decision to shoot less assisted jumpshots and jumpshots in general in favor of ball-dominant drives hinders ball movement and team assists compared to expert jumpshooters like MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Dirk, Kawhi, Miller and others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6AjYR8...

That's Nick Wright listing the best teams in history as "Kareem/Magic", "Shaq/Kobe", "KD/Curry" and then he names single guys like MJ's Bulls, or Bird's Celtics and Lebron's Heat - so Nick left out Wade from the Lebron/Wade duo, while Broussard put Wade in his "best sidekicks" list that excluded top 1st options like Kobe, Kareem, and even Drexler.. So they're trying to position Wade as a clear-cut #2 like Klay or Pippen are classified - that's their latest objective and I'm sure we'll hear more of this deflating of Wade going forward.

It's sneaky because Wade's prime was so long ago that they're hoping recent fans won't remember that Wade was a 1st option and Kobe-level before joining Lebron and his first couple years with Lebron - he was 1st option in the 2011 Playoffs and then agreed to step back in 2012 but was still top 5 in everything like PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48.. Only in 2013 did Wade's production rates fall from super-elite to pippen-level, aka 20/5/5 and 22 PER... And why should a goat candidate need Kobe-level production from a sidekick anyway, in addition to an 11-time all-star at 3rd option?.. Ultimately, the "decision" was always overkill, so efforts are made to deflate Wade, which boosts Lebron.

I grew up watching MJ and 1-1 Luka would just bully him.

Pays to watch the game sometimes not just read boxscores.

I watched many Bulls games throughout the 90's and Pippen was considered one of the softest and mentally-weak players in the league with many notable instances of him wilting under pressure and/or acting the fool with mental breakdowns - he acts much worse than KAT ever acted and he's a much more inconsistent producer than KAT ever was.

Pippen entered the league as a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, and then he missed Game 6 of the 89' ECF as the Bulls lost in 6, while also missing Game 7 of the 90' ECF as the Bulls lost in 7 - both instances were apparently doctor-diagnosed "migraines" that occur in high-pressure situations - Pippen literally had a medical condition that caused him to have migraines in closeout games - how could anyone win with this kind of clinically-diagnosed choking condition from teammates?

In addition to the debacles from 88-90', Pippen was getting dominated by X-Man in the 92' ECSF - he was melting down as X-Man bullied him in Game 7 before MJ stood up to X-Man and famously played enforcer for Pippen (shown above).. MJ learned from the debacles in 89' and 90' that Pippen's migraine syndrome required you to "stand up for him", as MJ states here... Without Jordan, Pippen had the historic embarrassment and meltdown in the 94' Playoffs.

History shows that whenever a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 93' Finals, 95' ECSF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals, 99' 1st Round, 00' WCF - Pippen had bad production and efficiency in all of these close series.. He was also outplayed by opposing SF's in many other series like the 93' or 95' 1st Rounds and of course the 96' Finals (15.7 on 34%).. He averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and this includes worst-ever shooting splits in 96' and 98'.

The point is that Pippen was just as inconsistent, weak mentally and low-producer as KAT, so Ant doesn't need a "pippen" to save him and simply needs to carry the pippen that he already has with KAT, and also the 4x DPOY (Gobert) and another all-defender in McDaniels - so Ant's team is loaded with Pippen's, but the "pippen" isn't the savior - he's the guy getting statistically-carried, so Ant needs to learn to carry his pippen's much better like Jordan did.. He can't think the pippen's save him - it's the other way around - the pippen is statistically-carried and saved, especially in the clutch and the pippen is a mental basket case as well.

Furthermore, Pippen entered the league as an 8 ppg rookie and he was eventually coddled by a system to achieve 15-20 ppg of mostly transition or flow points (system player).. Otoh, KAT was good from Day 1 and was All-NBA without needing to win titles first like Pippen - if Pippen hadn't won titles alongside Jordan and was losing in Washington every year, then he wouldn't develop as much and his weak production of 20 ppg and 5 apg wouldn't be recognized as All-NBA like it was alongside MJ and a dynasty.

Btw, Pippen nearly cost the Bulls the 98' season by getting surgery in the regular season instead of previous summer, and then this cost him the Finals where his broken back produced a 6 ppg player for the last 2 games - his surgery postponement caused him to break down on MJ in those Finals.. Of course, people also forget about his horrific performance in the 98' ECF that included missed FT's right before Miller's historic walk-off - this debacle ultimately caused a 7-game series and near-upset loss.. Then he choked in the 00' WCF with a 17-point lead in the 4th quarter of Game 7 to miss the Finals without MJ - compare that to Kyrie hitting big buckets and having goat clutch or Wade winning FMVP in 2006 and 2011 supposed to be).

KAT can do 2 things better than Pippen - shoot and iso - better shooting causes defenders to close out and good iso ability requires double-team considerations, so KAT was on scouting reports, while Pippen's weak iso or shooting left him off scouting reports, according to Shaq (here).

KAT's superior peak capability and ability to "go off" and therefore be on scouting reports is reflected in 13 forty point games in XXX games compared to 5 for Pippen in 1386 games (RS & PO).. KAT isn't primarily a dunker or transition player like the "system player" Pippen, who was absolute trash as a rookie and was eventually coddled by a system (nothing without it).

MJ isn't a shrimp like Ant - MJ was accustomed to guarding Barkley frequently in games against the Sixers, and also Worthy, Dominique, Drexler - these weren't mismatches for Jordan and he did a good job on them.

Otoh, MJ would score on Luka 100 out of 100 times.. case closed.. game over - Luka can't do that.

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Where did I say that Jordan's better FT percentage was because of better ball movement? Where did I correlate the 2?

I simply listed the categories that Jordan was better at, which included FT percentage, offensive rebounds, blocks per game, SPG, turnovers, scoring, and numerous other categories.

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All stats are from NBA.com (and linked below).. NBA.com defines "midrange" as shots inside 3-point line but outside paint:

.................eFG% All Jumpshots.................. Midrange

Lebron 2004.... 35.6%, 324/998............ 33.2%, 183/551
Lebron 2005.... 39.9%, 400/1136.......... 36.0%, 217/602
Lebron 2006.... 41.7%, 423/1166.......... 38.4%, 242/630
Lebron 2007.... 39.5%, 372/1066.......... 35.1%, 204/581
Lebron 2008.... 39.4%, 338/1001.......... 36.4%, 185/508
Lebron 2009.... 42.2%, 366/1024.......... 36.8%, 193/525
Lebron 2010.... 43.4%, 356/970............ 38.8%, 188/444
Lebron 2011.... 45.4%, 393/968............ 44.6%, 217/487
Lebron 2012.... 43.7%, 290/726............ 42.3%, 188/444
Lebron 2013.... 49.0%, 333/784............ 43.2%, 174/403
Lebron 2014.... 47.0%, 288/736............ 38.5%, 126/327
Lebron 2015.... 43.1%, 280/788............ 37.0%, 127/343
Lebron 2016.... 39.0%, 181/543............ 37.1%, 96/259
Lebron 2017.... 44.8%, 228/643............ 36.2%, 96/265
Lebron 2018.... 47.2%, 304/802............ 38.9%, 117/301
Lebron 2019.... 47.2%, 210/563............ 43.1%, 75/174
Lebron 2020.... 45.1%, 224/660............ 34.3%, 60/198


Bryant 2000.... 38.5%, 328/851.............. 39.7%, 201/506
Bryant 2001.... 43.0%, 460/1141............ 41.5%, 290/698
Bryant 2002.... 41.8%, 478/1184............ 40.9%, 321/785
Bryant 2003.... 44.1%, 597/1494............ 41.0%, 376/918
Bryant 2004.... 40.3%, 282/787.............. 38.3%, 151/394
Bryant 2005.... 43.5%, 346/947.............. 35.5%, 147/414
Bryant 2006.... 46.5%, 709/1724............. 42.4%, 414/976
Bryant 2007.... 46.7%, 556/1358............. 43.9%, 330/751
Bryant 2008.... 44.6%, 468/1217............ 38.8%, 256/660
Bryant 2009.... 45.0%, 519/1285............ 42.0%, 319/759


Jordan 1997.... 51.2%, 727/1528............. 48.9%, 588/1202


Currry 2015.... 56.0%, 424/1029............. 41.1%, 117/285
Currry 2016.... 60.8%, 525/1191............. 45.3%, 86/200

It's clear that MJ and Kobe have an unmatched combination of jumpshooting volume and efficiency, which allowed the greatest capacity for ball movement, chemistry and therefore a great-performing cast, aka great team.

So again, the only statistical categories that Lebron leads are defensive rebounds per game, APG, and TS, while MJ is superior in the categories of offensive rebounds, scoring, SPG, BPG, turnovers, FT %, jumpshooting efficiency (ball movement, team assists), PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, clutch-time production and efficiency, game-winner frequency and efficiency, and much more.

Btw, Lebron's slight advantage in TS is due to a drive-heavy style where most shots are high-efficiency shots within 4 feet, which offsets weak FT and jumpshooting efficiency.

Notsureifserious.gif

When they talk about greatest peaks, this is what we are talking about.

Bron just edged out Jordan in ESPN voting for the greatest FMVP of all NBA history in his 2016 Championship.

Against a 73 win team. Down 3-1. Leading all players in points, assists, rebounds, steals and blocks.

Only Bron's brand of basketball could have pulled it off.

The obsession with long-2s itt is really weird.

I for one am shocked by this disingenuousness

With 80s/90s rules?

I hate the Knicks, but I won't stand for this Knicks slander