Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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i just read the full times article and can confirm that NO DEBUNKING has occurred on this day
the Times itself/the writers of the piece does not claim that mass rape did not occur. they remain silent on the issue and present claim and counter-claim to the reader.
the article in fact says that investigators say that mass rape did not occur. more on those investigators in a moment.
there are three central themes/claims:
1) some zaka people who were first on the scene exaggerated what they saw. helpful quote from one of the investigators, "They are all religious guys; most of them are ultra-religious. They never saw a woman except their wife”
2) a womens rights laywer feminist chick (investigator 2) who thinks there was no rape is mad as hell that some other womens rights lawyer feminist chick is getting way more attention than her from israeli society
3) a psychologist (investigator 3) for a charity set up to help survivors of the nova festival told the times, quote, "I don’t think there were a lot of sexual assaults"
https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-t...
no paywall until monday
foolish of the times to publish a piece with a headline which reads "The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny." without making it clear that those investigators have nothing to do with the times
it should have been obvious that people who are keen to attach a credible organisation to their theories on rape denial, such as jalfrezi, would misrepresent the article
Do you think the Hamas reported death toll is accurate? If I had to guess, I would say shave off a 0 at least from the reported death toll. And probably another 1/4 were directly killed by Palestinian "civilians" who engaged Israeli commandos in a firefight during the extraction.
Also, if I had to guess, I would say Hamas was not involved at all in holding the hostages, or fighting the Israeli's on the way out. It was 100% "civilians."
Obviously, not everyone is a fighter with a weapons cache
I think the death toll is fairly accurate, but it includes people killed by Hamas friendly fire/rockets and people who died for very indirect or totally unrelated reasons.
and people killed by Hamas because they helped IDF
what's totally made up is how many of them are Hamas proper or collaborators (which includes a lot of women and "children", because a 16y old boy can be a combatant), ie people whose death we should celebrate with a smile, which is a very high percentage of the total
When groups take hostages it does not force us to kill them We just dont do that.
Unless the lives of the hostages somehow aren't considered very important.
repeated games man, by not killing today you are directly causing more kidnapping in the future.
game theory and so on.
the only moral action is never negotiate, credibly, at any present cost. the integral of all future humanity activity covers for present costs.
it's not very relevant imho but systematic/organized/sanctioned/sponsored are all different words.
we can be absolutely certain Hamas and antisemites terrorists in general don't consider raping a Jew immoral at all. (sanctioned, approved)
we are absolutely certain a lot of rape happened on 10 7 (and some after with hostages). systematic in some sense.
organized? I don't think so. it's already hard enough to pull off 10 7 in general, organizing teams to rape when you don't know conditions on the field beforehand is implausible.
"sponsored" strategically on purpose from the top as part of the "resistance"? nah they want western leftists on their side
repeated games man, by not killing today you are directly causing more kidnapping in the future.
game theory and so on.
the only moral action is never negotiate, credibly, at any present cost. the integral of all future humanity activity covers for present costs.
In game theory you can't just assert the answer you like and then say game theory baby!
solve for equilibrium if all states credibly commit to never negotiating with terrorists on hostages or other forms of blackmail.
is future blackmailing/hostage tacking lower or higher? how much can present hostage lives be worth vs all future lower terrorist activities in perpetuity?
example from Italy. the mafia and other criminals started a wave of kidnapping for ransom decades ago.
solution: freeze the accounts of all relatives of a kidnapped person and make it a very serious crime to pay ransom, or to help pay it if you are a professional (accountant, money lender and so on).
kidnapping for ransom disappeared in Italy shortly afterwards.
for politicians it would be a binding law making it treason against the state to initiate ANY discussion with terrorists
We could look at a decades long history of Hamas being *******s with hostages and then getting massively rewarded and see where that got Israel.
Even when they don’t get rewarded by Israel with a lopsided prisoner exvhange, nobody punishes them and Iran rewards them.
In game theory terms, kidnapping as many Israelis as possible has been a strictly dominant strategy for Hamas for decades. Creating human suffering not just for the Israelis but also the Palestinians.
It’s long past time to change the equation before they do even worse than Oct 7.
I have no inside information, so this could be completely wrong; but I am guessing the hostage extraction operation actually went sideways.
I am guessing the hostage extraction was supposed to be a quick in and out without any fighting; but **** hit the fan and the soldiers had to fight their way out, with air support.
I suspect Israel underestimated how quickly the Palestinian "civilians" would react and start attacking the extraction teams.
You can't just make it up. Hostage taking may be a strong stategy but it's strong in part because responding in way that kills the hostages is such a weak response.
Do those who think responding in a way that kills the hostages is the correct thing to do feel the same when it's the hostages from their own side?
"Whites" are literally the only group of humans that have ever tried to rise above the revolting ideas of blood and soil.
This is one of the most ridiculous and racist comments I've seen here in a while.
"Whites" like Hitler / Stalin / and today's Putin truly rose above the revolting ideas of blood and soil. Western modern whites like George W Bush definitely had peaceful intentions with the Iraq war.
And if we keep going back in history, dem whites in Europe 0-1900 encapsulated the meaning of blood and soil.
We could look at a decades long history of Hamas being *******s with hostages and then getting massively rewarded and see where that got Israel.
Even when they don’t get rewarded by Israel with a lopsided prisoner exvhange, nobody punishes them and Iran rewards them.
In game theory terms, kidnapping as many Israelis as possible has been a strictly dominant strategy for Hamas for decades. Creating human suffering not just for the Israelis but also the Palestinians.
It’s long past time to
Well, hostage deals are only part of it. More generally, the UN/US/EU/Gulf States have been rewarding Hamas (and more generally Palestinian govts) handsomely for belligerence. The resistance really is a business first and foremost.
For example, in 2021 Hamas attacked Israel and Biden gave them billions to stop. They made out extremely well in that confrontation, so maybe they were expecting an even bigger bonanza in response to 10/7.
And the only reason the equation has changed at all this time is because Israel has decided to change the equation herself. If the UN/US/EU got their way, Hamas would have been handsomely rewarded again with a generous hostage for prisoner swap and promises for billions more in "aid" in response to October 7th.
As far as why the world supports such an obvious broken incentive structure. I would say 2 things:
1. The promise of Arab money, especially Qatar.
2. Demographic realities. Between the far left and recent immigration of highly antisemitic populations; leftist parties in much of the western world need to appease large antisemitic constituencies to win elections and hold power.
This is one of the most ridiculous and racist comments I've seen here in a while.
"Whites" like Hitler / Stalin / and today's Putin truly rose above the revolting ideas of blood and soil.
I was responding to another poster using their choice of wordage. And this certainly was not where I was going with that statement. That is your own misinterpretation of the point.
But regardless it is kind of a cheap shot when I was already temp banned following that comment, and because of this certainly am not in a position to defend it.
Warlords, regardless of skin colour, kill just as ruthlessly as any other.
Other than bad ideas, the biggest thing holding back most civilizations/nations IMO is kleptocracy and nepotism. And although far from perfect, I would argue western liberal democracies have generally worked well because they attempt to rise above this and be more fair and meritocratic.
And certainly Stalin, Putin and Trump are not examples of leaders that exemplify such an ethos; and accordingly have had poor results.
Hamas Leader Sinwar Holds Firm on Demands for Gaza Cease-Fire With Israel
Sinwar continues to demand unconditional surrender from the Israelis because in his eyes, the more Palestinians dead the better it is for him.
Death toll from massacre still rising.
Disgusting country supporting this government's actions.
details of the heroic rescue operation are now being released. the escape vehicle carrying the three blokes apparently came under attack and was unable to move, seems that hamas were pretty close to recapturing them. imagine!
fortunately the brave boys and girls of the IDF liquidated the attackers, and got them back to their families 😀
