Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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well you seem to understand.
rational people can be convinced by changing their payoff matrix and it happened systematically.
fully irrational zealots have to be carpet bombed to nothingness or slaughtered in other ways. I am not saying this of "Islam". I am saying this of Hamas and related radical groups.
There's no one on Earth that purely rational. Everyone applies a payoff matrix but different people weigh different things.
Faced with mundane choices, people will readily alter their behavior in response to money. You can pay someone to clean your house or defend you in a murder trial. But with issues like gun control or abortion, a fundamentally different calculus seems to be at work. Economic trade-offs — like lifting an embargo in exchange for concessions — suddenly become unacceptable. As Professor Tetlock (now also at the University of Pennsylvania) has observed, even to suggest such a trade-off is to invite moral outrage, along with feelings of contamination and a need for moral cleansing.
Sacred-value conflicts can be lessened, sometimes just by reframing the issue. When Professor Tetlock and a colleague asked people about President Bill Clinton’s practice of rewarding big campaign donors with a night in the Lincoln Bedroom, they got varying reactions depending on how the question was phrased. If they presented it as an economic transaction — pay $250,000 or more and get a night in the White House — even Clinton supporters were indignant. But when the practice was painted as the kind of thing you’d do for a friend, much less outrage ensued.
Not every issue can be so easily finessed — but whatever the circumstance, money seems a subject best avoided. When Scott Atran of the French National Center for Scientific Research and Jeremy Ginges of the New School for Social Research asked people in the Middle East about potential solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they found that the mention of money frequently incited moral outrage. Among Palestinian refugees, those who were open to compromise responded favorably to the idea of giving up their right of return to Israel in exchange for financial support for the new state of Palestine. But when moral absolutists among the refugees were offered this solution, they greeted it with anger, disgust and increased support for violence. Symbolic gestures — like Israel’s giving up of its claim on the West Bank — had the opposite effect. The same pattern held with Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
As the West Bank is to Israelis and Palestinians, nuclear power is becoming to many Iranians. Powerful figures there have linked the issue to the history of foreign exploitation of Iran’s oil resources in an effort to reframe it as a matter of national pride. A recent online survey led by Morteza Dehghani of the University of Southern California suggests that this may be working: 14 percent of Professor Dehghani’s respondents treated nuclear power as a sacred value.
Israel warns of prospect of ‘all-out war’ after Hezbollah publishes video of military, civilian sites
Israel warned Hezbollah on Tuesday of the prospect of “all-out war” after the Lebanese militant group published a 9-minute video, purportedly taken by a drone, showing Israeli military and civilian locations in several Israeli cities.
“We are getting very close to the moment of deciding to change the rules of the game against Hezbollah and Lebanon,” Israeli Foreign Minister Israel Katz said in a statement on X. “In an all-out war, Hezbollah will be destroyed, and Lebanon severely beaten,” he added.
Parts of the Hezbollah footage, filmed in the daytime, claimed to show Krayot, a cluster of “highly populated” residential cities north of the Israeli city of Haifa and 28 km (17 miles) south of the Lebanese border, along with malls and high rises.
Other parts claimed to show a military complex near Haifa belonging to Israeli weapons manufacturer Rafael – including Iron Dome batteries, missile storage sites and radar sites – and military boats, ships and oil storage depots in the port of Haifa.
So something which I have brought up before which I have never seen addressed adequately by anyone advocating for Palestinian statehood is the geographic military significance of the West Bank.
Israel has been surrounded and constantly attacked from every direction for decades; and has relied mainly on defensive measures to keep their populace safe. This has worked in part because of the geographic distance of the belligerent forces from Israel's main population centers.
The West Bank is on high ground directly above these population centers. Given Palestinians and their supporters have shown zero inclination or ability to control militants from threatening and attacking Israel; why in the world would Israel give up such militarily significant land?
It is one thing if the Palestinians first demonstrated a willingness and an ability to control violence against Israel; but they have shown absolutely no inclination for either over decades.
There is absolutely no indication an independent Palestinian state controlling the West Bank would not be immediately compromised by foreign funded militants promising to destroy Israel; as has happened in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq and Gaza. I
In fact these groups are already operating in the West Bank, they just cant set up shop and bring in heavy weapons as they have in Gaza due to Israel's occupation.
Israel warns of prospect of ‘all-out war’ after Hezbollah publishes video of military, civilian sites
I could be wrong, but if Hezbollah actually was interested in attacking Israel, I dont see any reason it would be preemptively broadcasting its capabilities like this. You didn't see Hamas bragging about how compromised the southern border was before 10/7. Quite the opposite, Hamas pretended they were interested in peace and participated in agreements allowing Palestinians in to work, to catch Israel off guard.
Seems Hezbollah wants a detente, but is broadcasting its capabilities in an attempt to obtain leverage in the negotiations. Maybe Israel is doing the same thing by broadcasting its willingness to go into open war.
It’s kabuki theater with real weapons. Neither wants war but either could miss a step and accidentally start one.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal...
Article 25:
This answers why the UN should care. People care for various reasons, I don't think it's unique to care for Gaza.
I would be surprised if there's a well known famine where the UN is not involved in any way. Often famines occur in areas with internal conflict (often with actors who are largely not influenced by the West) and poor logistics, limiting what the UN can do, but they're still usually involved in some sense.
I
Weren't we just discussing how western aid to palestine has helped to prevent the stabilization of the area?
It certainly doesn't seem very stable to me.
But not starving children in other countries that we're not feeding?
Try to read the entire post next time, and then don't quote back a small part of it out of context.
My reading comprehension is much better than yours. The fact remains that I simply can't teach you how to care about starving children. That should have been your parents' job.
My reading comprehension is much better than yours. The fact remains that I simply can't teach you how to care about starving children. That should have been your parents' job.
You have shown many times that you don't understand concepts discussed by other posters here on both sides of brute spectrum.
I care about the starving children who are being neglected in other countries; why don't you?
Quit it, you two.
How has it prevented stabilization?
No it's not very stable, which is why these measures are extremely important.
I see absolutely no reason to expect stabilization in Palestine no matter how the current war resolves. Every Arab state that aligns with Iran is completely dysfunctional and unstable; and this is not a bug, it is a feature.
Despite the fact the US is pretty much the only reason Palestinians aren't all starving to death, Palestinian society hates US with a passion due to US support of Israel; and is very sympathetic towards Iran for being an Islamic nation that is standing up to the US and Israeli devils. This alone gives me pretty much no hope a Palestinian state would function any better than failed states like Lebanon, Yemen or Syria.
So something which I have brought up before which I have never seen addressed adequately by anyone advocating for Palestinian statehood is the geographic military significance of the West Bank.
Israel has been surrounded and constantly attacked from every direction for decades; and has relied mainly on defensive measures to keep their populace safe. This has worked in part because of the geographic distance of the belligerent forces from Israel's main population centers.
The West Bank is on high
Why is Israel letting settlers run wild in the West Bank and risk a conflagration if they were so worried about it?
Why is Israel letting settlers run wild in the West Bank and risk a conflagration if they were so worried about it?
The occupied West Bank Palestinians dont currently have the military hardware to do much. Israel has too tight a grip.
But a truly independent Palestinian state where the state itself or militias can (and certainly would) build an arsenal of drones and heavy weapons from Iran and Qatar is a complete non starter.
I see absolutely no reason to expect stabilization in Palestine no matter how the current war resolves. Every Arab state that aligns with Iran is completely dysfunctional and unstable; and this is not a bug, it is a feature.
Despite the fact the US is pretty much the only reason Palestinians aren't all starving to death, Palestinian society hates US with a passion due to US support of Israel; and is very sympathetic towards Iran for being an Islamic nation that is standing up to the US and Israe
We are using "stabilize" differently. I'm not saying that Gaza is going to become Monaco, I am saying that aid provides stabilization so the entire area doesn't blow up, which is a possibility even with these efforts.
Israel warns of prospect of ‘all-out war’ after Hezbollah publishes video of military, civilian sites
I could be wrong, but if Hezbollah actually was interested in attacking Israel, I dont see any reason it would be preemptively broadcasting its capabilities like this. You didn't see Hamas bragging about how compromised the southern border was before 10/7. Quite the opposite, Hamas pretended they were interested in peace and participated in agreements allowing Palestinians in to work, to catch Israel off guard.
Seems Hezbollah wants a detente, but is broadcasting its capabilities in an attemp
It’s kabuki theater with real weapons. Neither wants war but either could miss a step and accidentally start one.
All this is true to a point. But hezbollah having that footage is still scary. I don't see how an actual war with hezbollah can be avoided at this point
We are using "stabilize" differently. I'm not saying that Gaza is going to become Monaco, I am saying that aid provides stabilization so the entire area doesn't blow up, which is a possibility even with these efforts.
That's only if the West is on the ground giving out the aid
Otherwise it just strengthens hamas like it has for the past 15 years
I hope the Israeli people are also doing ok. I think it’s important to think about both sides even if you don’t support both sides
How has it prevented stabilization?
No it's not very stable, which is why these measures are extremely important.
The aid has enabled people to live as miserable refugees for generations without having to seek a new life somewhere else, which has led to their continual focus on the land where their grandfathers lived and attacking the people who live there now.
The whole idea of someone thinking they have a right to land just because their ancestors lived there is ridiculous in general. I'm not shooting rockets at Germany because my Great-grandfather was forced to leave there 150 years ago, and I don't even have a desire to visit there. I don't think land should even be heritable: I shouldn't have any more right to land in Germany than anyone else does, and the same goes for people whose ancestors lived in the land that's now Israel.
