LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Most people thought the Mavs were unbeatable after they beat the T'Wolves and "80's MJ".. It's disingenuous to say otherwise.

Similarly, most people thought the Lakers were unbeatable after beating Portland in 91'.

Otoh, the Bulls were considered a paper tiger and an unproven 1-man team, so most people had the Lakers winning the series.

This is the

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4T25pHu7Nc&t=69s

YouTube

The TRUTH About Michael Jordan FINALLY REVEALED

Unfortunately, Magic couldn't win despite massive advantages at the 3 thru 7 roster spots, while Luka couldn't overcome such a deficit... Only MJ consistently won Finals with material roster deficits, which includes a bigger deficit at the 3 thru 7 spots in the 92' Finals than the Mavs had this year against the Celtics.

Pippen was considered a nobody in 91', let alone a future HOF.

KAT or Siakam were All-NBA by 25 years old and no one views them as HOF.. But if they somehow got carried to 6 chips then you guys would think they were to 30 all-time, smh... And they out-produce Pippen and are less-carried.. They actually "take over" sometimes, while Pippen never did and was more of a dunker like Derrick Jones - never a "go-to" player..

It turns out that there was a guy who could carry a "KAT" to 6 titles, so Pippen is viewed as an all-timer despite never playing above a Larry Nance or peak Iguodala level - he was simply inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade.. Literally no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, which makes him the most overrated player of all-time.

spoken like someone who wasn't alive in 1991. and, if by some chance u were, u r absolutely full of s**t

pippen was considered the missing piece MJ needed that would eventually lead the BULLS to the title. and this isn't controversial or subject to debate. The results speak for themselves.

Change thread title to Pippen WOAT

^^^ See, that's what you're going by - you said it - you're looking at the RESULTS, aka results-oriented

Therefore, you're punishing MJ for being good enough to win with the 1st all-star he received and never need another one, while everyone else needed many all-stars but won much less.

MJ won 6 in 8 years with an all-star, yet you think it's better that he mostly loses with many all-stars and regardless of all-star, such 1/5 with AD, or 1/4 with Love, or 1/4 with Bosh (except the Allen miracle)..

And yes, Wade and Kyrie were excluded in the above analysis simply because they aren't needed to make the case - that's how bad Lebron actually is - I could've exchanged Wade for Bosh but what difference does it make.. Lebron is a guy that mostly loses, regardless of cast, and we know why - his lack of expert jumpshooting skill and subsequent reliance on the "down-hill" skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, so it can't develop the great chemistry needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team/dynasty.

Lebron mostly lost when he got help, while MJ mostly won.. Lebron mostly lost with 2 all-star teammates, while MJ mostly won with 1.

So you're being pretty unreasonable and simply punishing MJ for winning with the 1st all-star he received.

You're also pretending it's ideal to have a 2nd option that wasn't required to hit a big shot or "take over", while being a historic lane-clogger/bricklayer, mental case, and low-producer that forces the 1st option to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)..

Pippen took years to learn a basic role that yielded 15-20 system and transition points, otherwise he was just a dunker and literally nothing outside the system - he averaged 14 on 43% in Houston just a few months after averaging 20 for MJ in 1998... And even within the system, his low peak capability (just a dunker) meant he was "not on scouting report" as Shaq famously said.. There was no need to close out or double-team a bricklaying robot like Pippen, so he wasn't on scouting report - this is bball101, not subjective opinion - it's settled fact.

This is why no one respected Pippen and he was bullied by "bad boys" like X-Man or Aguirre - Pippen was beaten in his matchup a lot, which is why true alphas and clutch-heroes like Horry said he would "lock up sorry-ass Pippen" ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpVlMVYr-A&t=24s]here[/url]).

There's never been a time in history where GM's were like "we got our 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg, so we're set!!!.. Missing piece found!!.. Dynasty incoming!!!"

That never happened once anywhere in history.

The Bulls were a 1-man team in 88', 89', 90' and beyond

The timeline of the Pippen narratives begins with "can this player perform the minimal tasks and production required to win alongside the GOAT"...... and it's morphed into "missing piece" 30 years later because new fans see that he never lost with that.

Btw, all high-scoring ball-dominators and their "down-hill" skillsets impose spot-up roles and isn't 5-man basketball, which produces weak chemistry/fits .. High-scoring ball-dominators cannot develop the best chemistry, so they will always need more help/talent.. "More help and more talent needed" is the excuse provided for every loss because even the fans and media understand that chemistry or fits can't improve with that style of play, which means more talent is required..

This negative cycle of weak chemistry necessitating more talent causes an inability of high-scoring ball-dominators to have a stretches of mostly winning with a cast - Lebron mostly loses, regardless of cast.. Otoh, players with expert jumpshooting skill or fundamental post bigs foster great ball movement and chemistry, so they have stretches of mostly winning with a cast, such as Duncan winning 3 in 5 years, or Curry won 4 in 6, or MJ won 6 in 7, etc.. These are all either expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs, as required to have the ball movement and chemistry required for great-performing casts/dynasties.
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tl;dr

and this only proves my point. if someone needs to write a manifesto to counter what I said in a few short sentences:

TWOG really hates when you .gif him

I learned recently that Gen Z thinks .gifs are really cringe. It's a millennium and older activity. A sign of one's age.

Pippen in the 90s straight up dominated:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

What you said was so ignorant that it required an education

You called a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg the "missing piece"

You said that a guy "led" his team to titles when he was massively-carried in every series more than any sidekick with multiple chips ever was

That kind of ignorance requires an education and you got it.

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Remember when Austin Reaves beat the Celtics all by himself without AD and Lebron?

Imagine an entire season of opponents taking you lightly and not giving a **** about playing you

Imagine getting tickets for family members to watch you face "Ali" or "Babe Ruth", but when it turns out that Ali can't play, your family members start calling you and making excuses for why they can't make it... How embarrassing and what a letdown - you wouldn't care about playing that game anymore at all.

^^^ using media accolades as an argument confirms that I'm right because you obviously can't point to all-time PERFORMANCE by pippen where he actually "dominated" as you stated, because he literally never did - he never played above a Larry Nance or peak Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Similar to many winning sidekicks like Dumars, Klay, Parker, or Pau, Pippen didn't start making All-NBA until he won titles first - it's common for winning sidekicks to get inflated like this by the winning spotlight.. If any of these guys were losing on the Sacramento Kings or something, their pedestrian stats and production wouldn't get noticed.

And sure, Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94' against sleeping opponents, but he was exposed once opponents woke up in the playoffs and following season - the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 1995 before MJ returned to restore 3-peat in his first full seasons back.. Any team with Pippen as the best player will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

So you can argue "b-b-but 3x All-NBA" or whatever and I will raise you 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs - he literally NEVER dominated like you claimed.... I will re-raise you 19 on 42% for his Finals career - no amount of defense would allow someone like AD to escape ridicule and off-season trading with these kinds of numbers.. KAT was recently destroyed by critics for playing like this and "costing" Ant his first trip to the Finals... Of course everyone remembers when Wade couldn't win with that crap in the 2011 Finals - Lebron was basically Pippen in that series, yet prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with it against a 1-star team and Jason Terry.

Lebron is simply the biggest fraud in sports history by virtue of only learning how to be a talent-based winner or team-hopper (all-star team strategy) and never really learning how to WIN, aka chemistry development and organic winning.. He gave up on the chemistry learning curve in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter - the story has become weak fits and chemistry, so more help/talent is needed (talent-based winner, aka fraud).

(Btw, I go all-in with the fact that everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to average 25 or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg - that's a massive trend that was massively bucked by Pippen and his inferior play.)

Just want to check.

Media picking series winners. Good.
Media picking awards. Bad.

Media picking series winners is bad too as I'm pointing out - they were wrong in the 91' Finals in a similar fashion that they were wrong in the 24' Finals

Media should not be picking things and fans should certainly not follow their prognostications and narratives about who is a good player (all-nba) or who will win a series (91' Lakers or 24' Mavs).. So everything in all my posts stands and has been consistent... Media opinion = bad

I'm pretty sure your evidence that the Lakers and Dallas were favourite was that the media said they would win. You ignored all the other evidence that suggested otherwise.

No one was thinking about the Bulls' analytics the way you are in 2024.. Most people didn't know about 11-1 conference record and that's never been a strong argument because it's obviously path-dependent like the easy path of this year's Celtics, 07' Cavs, or 02' Nets, to name a few - there are definitely a lot of gimmies in there.

So none of that was evidence.. Neither is having the best player when everyone perceives the team to be a 1-man team of 1st-timers with the inferior roster.. "Best player" has never mattered much in this common circumstance.

The more important things that people focused on back then and to a lesser extent today are experience and how good the team actually was.. The Lakers were much better on-paper for example - in addition to massive advantages at the 3 thru 8 spots, Magic and Worthy were All-NBA that year, while the Bulls only had 1 all-star in 91' and 1 perennial all-star... This massive talent advantage coupled a commensurate advantage in experience is why most people outside of the small betting world thought the Lakers would easily handle the Bulls.. People were simply used to seeing the Bulls lose and the Lakers win - they didn't look at it through 2024 goggles like we are.. Perhaps the betting world had better knowledge about the Lakers' injuries.

Regardless, the

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4T25pHu7Nc

YouTube

The TRUTH About Michael Jordan FINALLY REVEALED

No one thought that the team with the better record, with the MVP, who just swept the Champions and who went 11-1 in the playoffs were favourites?

Well, I mean except for the guys setting the odds and people that bet on basketball I guess.

The Lakers had massive advantages in talent and experience, which were viewed as more important factors than the Bulls' paper tiger record and weak path - this is why most people outside of the small betting world felt the Lakers would beat the Bulls easily.

The 91' Bulls were a 1-man team with 1 star, while the Lakers had 2 All-NBA guys and massive advantage at the 3 thru 8 spots, plus one of the biggest advantages in experience ever seen in a Finals.. And both teams had the players that finished 1st and 2nd in the last 2 MVP races, except Magic was a 5x champion compared to 0x for MJ.

Accordingly, most people outside of Chicago and maybe Detroit thought the Lakers would win easily, as the commentary posted previously shows clearly - it was a nice find of footage by Uncut Hoops to remind everyone of how the Lakers' superior experience and roster was expected to easily handle the Bulls' newbie, 1-man team.

Btw, it should be mentioned that Pippen started his playoff career 0 for 5 with zero viable playoff series in five tries.. He finally played decently in the first 2 rounds of 1990 but then he had a historic choke in the ECF.. So heading into the 91' Playoffs, Pippen was not respected or a "star" by any means, while Worthy was All-NBA in 91' and had an utterly massive resume... Again, perhaps the betting world had insight into the Lakers' injuries, so they favored the Bulls.

So media is good again now?

It always enhances one's argument to use the opponent's logic against them (you guys always use All-NBA as an argument).

but I didn't just use the group-think of a few dozen media members to make my point - I also included the substance to support the point about the Lakers' superior roster, experience and Worthy's perceived superiority to Pippen - this is from the last post:

Pippen started his playoff career 0 for 5 with zero viable playoff series in five tries (88' and 89' Playoffs).. Then he had the historic choke in the 90' ECF.. So heading into the 91' Playoffs, Pippen was not respected or a "star" by any means, while Worthy was All-NBA in 91' and possessed a massive resume.. So the Lakers were perceived to have 2 stars and the Bulls only 1, while the Lakers also had massive advantage at the 3- thru 8 spots - the huge roster advantage coupled with a commensurate experience edge was more than enough for most people to think the Lakers would win easily, especially once they got past the "boogey-man" in Portland.

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Notable playoff series heading into the 91' Finals:

Worthy:

85' Finals............. 24 on 56%
87' WCF................ 31 on 60%
88' Finals............. FMVP
89' WCF................ 25 on 55%
89 Finals.............. 26 on 48%
84' Finals............. 22 on 64%
85' WCF................ 23 on 72%


Pippen:


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Worthy had 3 rings and FMVP compared to nothing for Pippen, who wasn't even voted by fans or coaches into the 91' all-star game..

So the Laker had 2 stars compared to 1 for the Bulls, while also having massive edges at the 3 thru 8 spots.. The massive roster advantage coupled with a commensurate advantage in experience caused most people to think the Lakers would beat the Bulls easily.

Is Jordan paying you for this?

So Worthy didn't have a notable series for 2 years before the 91 Finals. By that logic Warriors would beat the Celtics in a series because I could post a bunch of series where Green and Thompson were great over the last 7 years.

He's actually paid by Lebron as a false flag operation.

1990 1st Round vs Hakeem

Worthy........ 28.0 on 65%
Magic.......... 19.0 on 47%
Hakeem...... 19.0 on 44%

^^^ Worthy was the best player in the series over Hakeem and Magic

This wasn't uncommon - Worthy was frequently the best player in the series over guys like Isiah, Hakeem, Magic, Malone - WHOEVER - he went toe-to-toe with Bird and might've outplayed him in the 85' Finals... Meanwhile, pippen was clearly a secondary or even tertiary producer that was never expected to play on the same level as Malone, Hakeem, Bird, or anyone of that top caliber.

But back to the 1990 Playoffs.... After "Worthy-ball" dominated Hakeem's Rockets, Magic decided to be the leading scorer in the 2nd Round and average 30 ppg for the first time in his career.. This high-scoring ball-dominance that modern fans know as "bron-ball" caused massive upset loss to KJ's Suns in the 2nd Round.

We already know how ball-dominance lacks the brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat top teams - this was never more evident in the 1990 2nd Round or 2009 ECF - a couple ball-dominators decided to be high-scoring ball-dominators and it yielded historic upset loss each time.. Since ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams, they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Worthy, Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh, and Love..

In addition to their need for all-time scoring help, ball-dominators also need all-star spacers for their drive-heavy game like Mo, Allen, Korver, D-Lo, or premium spacers like Scott, Cooper, JR Smith, Mike Miller, Danny Green, KCP and many more.. So ball-dominators need all-time scoring and spacing help that expert jumpshooters like MJ, Curry, Bird or Kobe don't need.. Expert jumpshooters have great brand of ball at high scoring levels to beat top teams, and they can shoot over packed paints, so they don't need nearly as much spacing help.

Magic did a lot of the playmaking, while the Lakers had better bigs and better defensive ranking than the Bulls, but Worthy did the "closing" and scored the same as Pippen heading into the Finals - the more important understanding is that Worthy was a historic dominator and FMVP with multiple chips like Kawhi, while Pippen was a nobody and somewhat unknown like 2019 Siakam.

Pippen had simply taken 4 years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 transition or flow points - this role is inherently inferior to the carry-job player and stats that Worthy was in the playoffs, where he was asked to outplay Hakeem, Bird, or Isiah in any given series.

On a stand-alone basis (no MJ), Pippen's robotic role in the triangle yielded a .500 team in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat in his first full seasons back.. We can debate which team (94' or 95') was a better representation of the Bulls without MJ - I think the placebo effect and inevitable downward trajectory was pretty clear - the Bulls were cratering in 95' after Pippen and his "closer" Kukoc were gifted the most ready-made, well-oiled machine ever in 94'.