Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Another day and another horrific massacre of children. We are seeing a difference in the deaths now that Biden finally released that shipment of 1k and 2k bombs.
its clear the bombs are intended to kill as many people as possible. any Hamas members killed are just collateral damage.
its clear the bombs are intended to kill as many people as possible. any Hamas members killed are just collateral damage.
Normally, you would fine up the intelligence and surveillance until you could hit the human target with one guided weapon from a drone. It does look as though the Israelis are deliberately engaging in 'collective punishment', and some critical Israeli sources have suggested that this is the case.
Some of the people are still left, and the IDF clearly haven't finished with them.
If Hamas is in tents, you target the tents. Looks like the IDF is just doing their job. I wasn’t aware that Hamas operatives never enter tents and only reside in buildings. If Hamas wasn’t using human shields there would be less collateral but we all already know this lol!
Hamas is not in tents. they stay away from civilians and tents bc thats where Israel shoots the bombs.
You are probably right. While Israel is taking heavy casualties getting sniped left and right, Hamas is deftly avoiding the invading forces, taking no real damage, and only getting stronger. I am sure it is only a matter of time before Israel capitulates and begs Hamas for peace.
And the Palestinian people are pretty much destined to emerge victorious under their great leadership.
well I didnt say any of that.
but you are correct there is a good chance they wipe out all of the Palestinians. but it was still moral and dignified for those people to resist from tunnels if they choose just like it was for all other doomed people in history.
Victor,
Serious question. In your opinion, what is Hamas' ultimate goal for Gaza and maybe the Palestinian people as a whole? If Israel stopped operations now and the whole world came to Hamas and asked them what they want to have lasting peace, what would Gaza look like in 30 years? What would Israel look like? Just your opinion, I know your can't be sure of all their goals and motivations.
Victor,
Serious question. In your opinion, what is Hamas' ultimate goal for Gaza and maybe the Palestinian people as a whole? If Israel stopped operations now and the whole world came to Hamas and asked them what they want to have lasting peace, what would Gaza look like in 30 years? What would Israel look like? Just your opinion, I know your can't be sure of all their goals and motivations.
in general, I take people at their word. this is a character flaw of mine. but its usually correct and certainly was for Israel when they said they would do genocide.
but Hamas speaks often. its not hard to find proposals and ideas.
they have offered many times for lengthy ceasefires of like 10 years. nothing will ever be enough for Israel.
in general, I take people at their word. this is a character flaw of mine. but its usually correct and certainly was for Israel when they said they would do genocide.
but Hamas speaks often. its not hard to find proposals and ideas.
they have offered many times for lengthy ceasefires of like 10 years. nothing will ever be enough for Israel.
That article deals in nothing but generalities. "We have the right and duty to fight the occupation" type language. It deals in no specifics at all. IMO, this is the biggest problem with the Palestinian resistance movement (especially Hamas), and has been for 80 years. They have no reasonable concrete demands to work with. The only concrete goals Hamas has are the ones in their charter (complete destruction of Israel) and obviously this isn't reasonable and gives nothing to work with.
Also, there was a ceasefire on October 6th. Hamas violated it. Hamas argued it was completely their right to do so because of Israeli's actions. Even assuming Hamas offered a hard 10 year "ceasefire," Hamas has already shown they feel they have the right to violate ceasefires at anytime. So they are actually offering nothing in this respect. They are just demanding that Israel unilaterally ceasefire for nothing but the hope they will work out a hostage release down the road.
I read that entire article. It is very long, but also very empty. The big takeaway is that Hamas sees themselves as a resistance movement fighting an abusive imperial power, akin to Vietnam and Apartheid South Africa, and the ends justifies the means.
But again, there is nothing specific for anyone to work with as far as resolving the conflict, except for again the Charter (including the revised version) which calls for the destruction of Israel.
in general, I take people at their word. this is a character flaw of mine. but its usually correct and certainly was for Israel when they said they would do genocide.
but Hamas speaks often. its not hard to find proposals and ideas.
they have offered many times for lengthy ceasefires of like 10 years. nothing will ever be enough for Israel.
We've talked about the 10 year ceasefire before that will not recognize Israel as a state. I think Hamas is pretty honest and would do their best to abide by that ceasefire if Israel had the same commitment, which they won't because of the whole not recognizing them as a state thing.
So based on taking them at their word, it seems like they've been pretty consistent they would like to see a future where Israel does not exist. Do you disagree? Do you think they want a one state solution that would involve repatriating Palestinians to their land they hold deeds for and participating in a democracy where Muslims would have the majority?
What do you honestly think their ideal end game is?
We've talked about the 10 year ceasefire before that will not recognize Israel as a state. I think Hamas is pretty honest and would do their best to abide by that ceasefire if Israel had the same commitment, which they won't because of the whole not recognizing them as a state thing.
So based on taking them at their word, it seems like they've been pretty consistent they would like to see a future where Israel does not exist. Do you disagree?
Hamas was under a ceasefire October 7th. They intentionally broke it for reasons they felt were completely justified. They have done this several times. Why in the world do you think they would abide by another ceasefire? That is just bizarre IMO to assume they would abide by a "10 year ceasefire"
I would say Hamas are honest, which means that they will not make any attempt to abide by any ceasefire, nor will they even pretend like they will. A "ceasefire" is just a pretense for Hamas to disengage for the immediate present; nothing more, nothing less.
As an aside, pretty much EVERYONE Israel has ever fought that has signed a ceasefire with them has broken it, normally before the ink is dry (including Hamas multiple times and Hezbollah). It would be insane for Israel to agree to any ceasefire with Hamas with any expectation it would be followed. That is not to say they wouldn't agree to a ceasefire anyways when they are ready to disengage.
Also, the second point is a non starter for Israel, regardless of whether Hamas would be satisfied with it, which I dont know how they could be just reading their charter. You might as well say the US will return Manhattan to whatever Indian tribe lived there. At best the expectation could be reparations. But even that is asking a lot after so many wars, infintadas, rockets, suicide bombers, etc.
Hamas was under a ceasefire October 7th. They intentionally broke it for reasons they felt were completely justified. They have done this several times. Why in the world do you think they would abide by another ceasefire? That is just bizarre IMO to assume they would abide by a "10 year ceasefire"
I would say Hamas are honest, which means that they will not make any attempt to abide by any ceasefire, nor will they even pretend like they will. A "ceasefire" is just a pretense for Hamas to dis
I'm not familiar with the details of the 2021 ceasefire. Did it include Israel could detain Palestinians indefinitely with no charges and carry out targeted killings? Because that was happening between May of 21 and Oct 6th 2023.
The other questions are for Victor as he seems to be the most vocal supporter of the resistance.
We've talked about the 10 year ceasefire before that will not recognize Israel as a state. I think Hamas is pretty honest and would do their best to abide by that ceasefire if Israel had the same commitment, which they won't because of the whole not recognizing them as a state thing.
So based on taking them at their word, it seems like they've been pretty consistent they would like to see a future where Israel does not exist. Do you disagree? Do you think they want a one state solution that would
yes they say in that article that is their ultimate goal. but would they settle for an end to the occupation and oppression? well, they have pledged they would for lengthy periods of time.
ofc they are never going to "recognize Israel" which is such a stupid and demeaning demand. I mean, the Koreas dont "recognize" each other but that doesnt given one side carte blanche to murder and oppress.
yes they say in that article that is their ultimate goal. but would they settle for an end to the occupation and oppression? well, they have pledged they would for lengthy periods of time.
ofc they are never going to "recognize Israel" which is such a stupid and demeaning demand. I mean, the Koreas dont "recognize" each other but that doesnt given one side carte blanche to murder and oppress.
If they're never going to recognize Israel as a state because they have conquered their land and are currently occupying it, where does that leave Israel? Israel obviously is not going say yeah, we're bad, we'll go find somewhere else to live. So they are at perpetual war, with Israel having a massive defensive and offensive advantage. What is a country going to do with a neighbor like that? Most countries with their advantage are going to try to pummel them into submission and anyone siding with Hamas is on the side of Israel no longer existing as that seems to be Hamas' end game goal. Seems like at the moment there is no talk for an inbetween.
So at the moment with Hamas not offering any compromise, you are supporting the annihilation of Israel.
Personally I don't think Israel should exist where it is but it's been 80+ years, they fought for it and conquered the land. We have to deal with the reality today and not what should have been.
The Arab world in the end will be victorious if they keep it up for the next 100 or so years but is the squeeze really worth the juice? There is room for everyone to have a happy existence.
plenty of countries dont recognize each other. they arent at perpetual war.
As an aside, Israel is currently demolishing infrastructure and widening the Philadelphi Corridor. Because the corridor was so narrow with infinite capacity to attack Israeli (or any other security force) troops from nearby buildings, the corridor was always indefensible. And Israel was never allowed to widen it by their "allies" for so called humanitarian reasons; so they decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze, so they abandoned it.
But now Israel is working hard to demolish infrastructure and make a wide, defensible security corridor (for them and whoever takes over after them) which will permanently hamper Hamas (and other militant groups) ability to militarize Gaza and maintain the war machine.
Complete game changer, and why the pro Hamas international community was so resistant towards Israel going into Rafah and taking over the corridor. And why it is so important to Hamas that Israel abandon the corridor as part of any ceasefire.
As an aside, Egypt did exactly this a long time ago. No one cares because no Jews were involved, but Gaza was originally much bigger to the south, and a long time ago Egypt demolished the southern part of the city to set up a border wall and security zone.
Unfortunately because Egypt is so corrupt, and has many antiemetic Islamist elements embedded in their govt, military and society at large, they still worked with Hamas to build and maintain smuggling tunnels; while insulating their nation from the main Gaza population and its dysfunction.
in other words, Israel is breaking international law and violating their treaty with Egyp
