LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

lol

why no one taking the KD bait (but truth)?? I bolded it and everything

tell everyone since they seem to have no answer for it

I long said LeBron should move down to power forward for his last few years. I never dreamed his last years would be in the 2030's, but we must be getting close. His rebound and particular offensive rebounds would skyrocket, save some energy, maybe keep up some high scoring, even well past 40 upcoming. I wasn't expecting him to go north of 40% on 3's with that idea, I must admit. So maybe he could go Kerr/Paxson and be a spot up 3 shooter and end up with 50K points. Sick.

There are clear aspects of lebron's game that are major flaws, such as the 3rd star must become a role player, or he cannot fit with other spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Westbrook, Hughes, or Ingram, while the Wade fit massively-underperformed expectation as well.. Furthermore, Lebron's low assisted rate for a forward hurts ball movement and team assists compared to teams with normal forwards that don't dominate the ball - Lebron had massive deficits is team assist for all of his playoff losses in the last 10 years..

Of course there's also a massive coaching carousel and low strategic ceiling for high-scoring ball-dominators, aka uncoachable..

His ball-dominant stiff-arm game also needed all-star spacing to win 60 and MVP in 09' or 13'.

Finally, he's also too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and needs all-time scoring help, aka he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick) and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level)..

Power forwards fit perfectly with point guards and ball-dominators, so Lebron cannot play power forward or he would've done so when Westbrook arrived, instead of having the worst fit of all-time and worst-ever underachievement of roster/expectation by missing the play-in.

The stats tell the story.. It's statistical fact that Lebron is a high-scoring ball-dominator (live-dribbler) and when one player dribbles so much, it turns teammates into spot-up shooter - this is a statistical fact because Lebron reduces his teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)... The imposition of spot-up roles and the "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and prevents good chemistry, which makes Lebron a talent-based winner (more help needed).. The lack of chemistry also prevents a great-performing cast/great team and high team ceilings/Finals records.

The long list of bad fits like Westbrook confirms that Lebron doesn't have all-time IQ or play 5 positions - he's JUST a primary ball-handler or ball-dominator that will clash with other spotty-shooting ball-dominators like himself - this includes Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram and even the fit with Wade underperformed drastically.. In addition to bad fits with ball-handlers, Lebron had bad fits with other forwards like Bosh, Love or Jamison.

Lebron had an equal-scoring partner in 2016 that knocked off Curry, which would be like Stockton outplaying MJ - I'm pretty sure Malone would win in that circumstance.... Karl Malone would destroy the 90's Bulls if he had a 27 ppg sidekick that could outplay MVP's like Curry or 80's MJ, while being referred to as "the most skilled player ever", or "the most talented player ever" like Kyrie was..

We know this because Malone played the Bulls to a standstill with much less.

So let's stop overrating Lebron's best works compared to Malone's, and we already know that Malone's peak of 3 straight first-team defense + 3 straight MVP's (except the 2nd to MJ) is on-par with any peak that Lebron ever had.

So stop pretending that Lebron is "so much better" than Malone - he isn't, but simply had a point guard skillset instead of a PF skillset, so his game looks better to most people.. But regardless of whether Karl has a PG skillset or PF, it's still just Karl Malone, aka vastly inferior to MJ.

Lebron is a play-in player at this point, regardless of cast... Lebron fans and media get angry if AD doesn't completely dominate with 25-30 points, 12 rebounds and 3 blocks - otherwise, he's trash and isn't doing enough for Lebron - but AD did this and they still barely made the play-in.

There's so much proof of the fraud - Broussard said that if Lebron went to Philly, then he would get the lion-share of the credit if they won since Embiid wasn't winning chips before Lebron got there - but that's what AD did for Lebron in the West - Lebron was lottery until AD turned the team into champion by turning the defense from worst to first and leading the team in scoring - he also dominated Jokic in the playoffs.. It's one of the greatest seasons ever but AD gets no credit.

who did karl malone HAVE????..

If Malone had a teammate to outplay MJ like Kyrie outplayed Curry, then he would've easily swept MJ and won by record amount...But instead he had a barren cast of unathletic role players - he was the entire athletic force for his team, similar to how people think about Lebron..

It's quite clear that Malone would destroy the 90's Bulls if he had a sidekick that could outplay MVP's like Curry or 80's MJ, while being referred to as "the most skilled player ever", or "the most talented player ever" like Kyrie was..

Malone had no cast by comparison, so it's goat-level that he played the Bulls to a stand-still with no cast.

Accordingly, let's stop overrating Lebron's best works compared to Malone's, and we already know that Malone's peak of 3 straight first-team defense + 3 straight MVP's (except the 2nd to MJ) is on-par with any peak that Lebron ever had.

Lebron isn't "so much better" than Malone - he simply had a point guard skillset instead of a PF skillset, so his game looks better to most people.. But regardless of whether Karl has a PG skillset or PF, it's still just Karl Malone, aka vastly inferior to MJ..

And again, we know that Lebron only has a PG skillset because he has worst-ever fits with other ball-handlers instead of the perfect fits that PF's have with ball-handlers.. Ultimately, unlike fundamental bigs (Duncan, Jokic, KAJ) or expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ, Bird) who produce great ball movement and chemistry, high-scoring ball-dominators imposes spot-up roles - this isn't 5-man basketball, so it cannot develop the great chemistry needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team

Meh. A man can change positions, change roles. What happened when way over-sized ball hog Magic Johnson moved down low in the finals for a game with no practice at it? 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists. With no practice or preparation. LeBron's power, one of his lesser used assets while dribbling the ball 30 feet from the hoop and never crashing the offensive boards, would bode well on the blocks. He would now generally be faster and stronger than his defender, instead of slower. Look how MJ changed his style late. I don't get the argument, "No he's a ball hog and he can't do anything else."

If his 3pt. % is going to be this high, that kind of nixes the idea. But I think last season will prove a bit anomalous on that. He probably doesn't want to do that move unless it became necessary. As he aged and lost speed it seemed a natural evolution, but not if he's going to be a sharpshooter in today's environment.

If a guy was even a little bit tall in the 70's thru 90's, he started out on the block as a big man - Magic started out this way and was always a great post player since high school - he was never an AAU-style ball-dominator like today's player that you're envisioning... Magic already played on the post alongside Kareem a fair amount but now he was going down there full-time for a game in Kareem's place.. The reason the Lakers went to this option was because it was infact a very viable option... Magic had no weaknesses in the 2-point areas and all great players were this way - previous eras had the same advantage on 2-pointers that today's player has on 3-pointers.

It's funny how Lebron is supposed to be bigger than MJ, yet MJ destroys him in the big man stats like offensive rebounds, blocks, or the "enforcer" role for example, like he took against X-Man in the 92' ECSF Game 7.

FINALS HISTORY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4T25pHu7Nc&t=63s

YouTube

The TRUTH About Michael Jordan FINALLY REVEALED

There's a misconception that MJ "changed his style" during the 2nd three-peat - he simply relied on an existing and already goat-level part of his game more than previously when his rim attack was more dominant.. When a younger MJ was more dominant attacking the rim, no one noticed those boring ol' turnarounds.. But when he started relying on the turnaround and it's footwork more exclusively, then it became a thing of beauty because of just how good he was at it (burning defenders so frequently with that particular package of moves).

It's because the eye test and jumpshooting efficiency stats confirm that Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting mechanics or skill - he can't live off double pin-downs or running off screens (off-ball), so he cannot facilitate the ball movement like expert jumpshooters that don't need to rely on ball-dominance like Curry, MJ or Bird.

The jumpshooting stats were posted previously itt and can be posted again - they show that unlike expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe, most of Lebron's FG attempts aren't jumpers, and his jumpshooting volume is less than half of theirs with vastly inferior effective FG% on these jumpshots (combined 2 and 3-pointer percentage).

So again, without ability to facilitate ball movement like a fundamental big (Duncan, Jokic, KAJ), or an expert jumpshooter (Curry, MJ, Bird), Lebron must be a high-scoring ball-dominator (live-dribbler).... And when one player dribbles so much, it turns teammates into spot-up shooter - this is a statistical fact because Lebron reduces his teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)... The imposition of spot-up roles and the "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and prevents good chemistry, which makes Lebron a talent-based winner (more help needed).. The lack of chemistry also prevents a great-performing cast, aka great team/Finals records.

Aside from the last few seasons since he's gotten older, history shows that Lebron was a high-scoring ball-dominator for his entire career and also a weak to sub-par jumpshooter for the vast majority of his career.

But this late-career improvement in his jumpshot and off-ball frequency has confirmed that Lebron is a really bad off-ball player by virtue of a weakly-ranked team offense and a bad team that barely makes the play-in regardless of cast.. AD did what everyone wanted him to do with 25/12 and great defense, yet the Lakers were still a play-in team because Lebron is a play-in player..

So despite Lebron's improved jumpshooting efficiency in recent years, he still grew up accustomed to the simpleton, ball-dominant approach, so he never developed the great instinct to play off teammates and is a bad off-ball player - the play-in status confirms this.. It's ineffective basketball.. He also hasn't made an all-defensive team since the stone ages.

Further proof that Pippen was a "nobody" heading into the 91' Finals was that it wasn't a consideration to put Pippen on Magic as the primary defender, aka there's no way Pippen could handle the responsibility of starting his 1st Finals on Magic Johnson - he had just overcome the Pistons without having a migraine and couldn't be trusted to handle Magic in his first Finals.. The memory of Pippen missing Game 6 of the 89' ECF or Game 7 of the 90' ECF was still quite fresh and it's the reason that fans, coaches and media didn't view him as an all-star in 1991 - a complete consensus.. Ultimately, it was everyone's first Finals, so MJ was viewed as easily the best choice for Magic, as Marv Albert and Fratello discuss here after MJ picks up his 2nd foul in game 2 right before the switch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCv3GWyZLTE&t=938s

YouTube

1991 | Chicago Bulls vs Los Angeles Lakers | NBA Finals Game 2

"there's no question that he's (MJ) the best guy to defend Magic Johnson"

And he did - he guarded Magic for over 80% of possessions in the 91' Finals.
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Title Equity 101

Since high-scoring ball-dominators like Oscar, Luka, Lebron, SGA, Harden or Westbrook never produced an "unbeatable" team that mostly won for a stretch, and mostly lost regardless of who was put around them, they produce far less long-run title equity than skillsets that produce "unbeatable" teams and stretches of mostly winning (spurts of chips here and there).

Specifically, the best expert jumpshooters or centers have many examples of "unbeatable" teams, aka stretches of mostly winning with a team, such as Curry winning 4 chips in 6 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, or MJ won 6 in 7.. Otoh, high-scoring ball-dominators never produced great teams and mostly lost with every cast, so they provide less title equity than the best bigs or the best expert jumpshooters that have many unbeatable teams and stretches of mostly winning.. Accordingly, the top 12 should be ranked by the skillset that produces the most long-run title equity, which likely means a mix of the best expert jumpshooters (MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry) followed by the best centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem), followed by the best ball-dominators (Lebron, Oscar).. Magic could be in the ball-dominator group and rank at #10 instead of Hakeem, who could be at #13.

Of course we already know why high-scoring ball-dominators can't develop great teams - the "down-hill" skillset is simple but it isn't 5-man basketball and the ball-dominance kills ball movement.. Specifically, high-scoring ball-dominators lower their teammates' assists and increase their assisted rate (impose spot-up roles), which prevents the great fits, ball movement and chemistry needed for a great-performing cast, aka great team/Finals record.. Lower assists by teammates also means low TEAM assists, a hallmark of the high-scoring ball-dominator (assist-hog) - the common thread in every series loss of SGA and Luka's career, as well as the every loss from the last 10 years of Lebron's career is massive deficits in team assists.

It's important to note that the original high-scoring ball-dominator of the modern era was Lebron and we can say in hindsight that he left Cleveland in 2010 because his high-scoring ball-dominance wasn't capable of developing great chemistry, so he needed to become a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy, team-hopper).. He was otherwise on the path of every great player by having an organic juggernaut and league favorite by year 6 or 7, but "bron-ball" couldn't develop the chemistry needed to win with organic rosters of 1 franchise player.. Accordingly, he obtained better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team) and held this advantage for 6 years until KD finally responded - KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond.

Jordan shooting 5.2/16ish from mid-range in 98 was unstoppable?

Those Jordan midrange numbers are very unimpressive actually. 32.3% wtf

I like that he's saying how bad Luka is, even though Luka has done more winning in his career to the same point as Jordan.

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1998 League average TS vs Jordan

Regular Season - 52.4
Jordan - 53.3

Playoffs - 52.9
Jordan - 54.5

Jordan shot above league average TS in regular season and playoffs despite having the goat scoring burden and possession burden (usage), and also facing the most defensive attention (carrying scoring load).

This goat combination of volume and efficiency gave his team more positive possessions than any other player in the league, by far.. The onslaught was also achieved with a great mix of off-ball and on-ball scoring diversity that allowed great ball movement - the great ball movement and brand of ball wore out defenses so they had less capacity for offense (less capacity to "get hot"), aka winning the attrition battle.. This contrasts with Lebron's ball-dominance that lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense and to "get hot".. Indeed, we the common story is how opponents get hot against bron-ball such as the 09' Magic, 14' Spurs, Warriors or 11' Mavs and 23' Nuggets.

You're doing the trick again where you compare 22-year Luka or Lebron after they had 4 years to develop their team to 1st year Jordan and say "see, Luka and Lebron did more at 22".. You punish Jordan for going to college and playing in eras where "the best 6'4" high school player " that Coach Roy Williams ever saw couldn't get shuttled straight to the league like Bron and Luka... smh

But the reality is that Jordan was unbeatable the instant he got an all-star, while Luka did nothing with a legitimate franchise player like Brunson, who plays far better than Pippen ever did.. Brunson just averaged 32 and 8 assists in the playoffs and had many heroics in prior years.. So Luka isn't unbeatable with minimal help like MJ was, while his ball-dominant skillset produces gutter team ceilings compared to MJ's ball movement and fundamentals.. MJ's superior scoring diversity would fit like a glove with Brunson, or even Porzingas for that matter, while Luka's ball-dominance is like bron-ball - it can't build great chemistry and therefore becomes a talent-based winner ("moar help please").

Btw, people forget that the go-to play for the 2006 Cavs when they needed a bucket was the modern-style, pick-n-pop with Big Z - the Cavs lived off this play and this advanced brand of ball gave them an edge.. Accordingly, Lebron had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs by acquiring a great coach and an all-defense backcourt of Snow and Hughes, while Zydrunas had his best season in 06' after 2 all-star years in 03' and 05'.. This kind of veteran high seed with all-star talent cannot be compared to Jordan's rookie teams or the roster clean-house in 87' and 88' after the injury in 86'.. The point is that when MJ got all-star help, he mostly won, while Lebron and Luka-ball mostly lose and also produce weaker team ceilings/Finals records.

I meant number of years in.

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Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG

Regular Season

Michael Jordan.......... 1987, 1993
Rick Barry................... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo...............1975
George Gervin........... 1982
Kobe Bryant............... 2006
Elgin Baylor................ 1963
Tiny Archibald............ 1973
Dominique................. 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan.........1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:...............1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo............. 1974, 1975
George Gervin.......... 1975, 1982
Jerry West.................. 1966
Rick Barry.................. 1977
Hakeem..................... 1995
Kobe Bryant.............. 2007
Dominique................ 1988
Allen Iverson............. 2005
Kareem Jabbar.......... 1975

* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career

Not relevant because none of them had Jordan's burden and that's the issue - it's Jordan's combination of "burden" and efficiency that makes him GOAT.

It's easier to shoot well when you have an equal-scoring teammate to attract equal defensive attention - the guys you mentioned had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for at least half their title runs, while Jordan had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) for every series, let alone playoff run or Finals.

Ultimately, none of the guys you mentioned had Jordan's burden of possessions (usage), scoring burden, or carrying the scoring load (facing max defensive attention), and also carrying weak help over top teams (beating top 5 SRS or Finals teams with bed-wetting sidekick, aka weak scoring & efficiency).

Jordan did all these things as a standard, while everyone else did them as one-offs or not at all.. No one ever won as usage champ, except Jordan did it 5 times, while the only guys that won as scoring champ were peak Shaq in 00' and peak Kareem in 71', plus Jordan's 6 titles - so their peak burden was the GOAT's standard burden.

Ultimately, Jordan has better stats than Lebron in PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TO'S, FT %, usage, ORTG, Team Assists, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, clutch stats, game-winner efficiency, raptor, and plus/minus (here and here)... Otoh, Lebron leads DREB, TS and APG.. The category of TS is due to Lebron's ball-dominant, drive-heavy game (less ball-movement), while the APG advantage is due to ball-domination and less ball movement (hogging the assists, so the team assists are lower).

In year 5, Luka was lottery, while MJ was taking the champs to 6 games, which actually outperforms Luka's year 6 performance of getting gentlemen swept by the champs.

In year 6, Jordan took the repeat-champs to 7 games, while Luka was destroyed by 1st-time champs.

I understand that Luka made the Finals, but Finals appearances are path-dependent and conference-dependent - i.e. Luka doesn't make the Finals this year in the East, while 89' or 90' MJ probably makes the Finals from the West - so it's impossible to compare Finals appearances over eras and that's why they're overrated... Only winning the Finals matters to prove the team beat the entire league, instead of being a top 4'ish team that was simply in the right conference to make the Finals.

Of course, it was always just splitting hairs to go by the exact years anyway, so we can go by the general period of time... For example, Luka got destroyed by the champs 22' and 24' via gentleman sweep, while MJ was taking the champs to 6 and 7 games in 89' and 90' without his sidekick playing in the closeout games.. (he also didn't really have a "sidekick" perse in 89').. Clearly, MJ was doing much more with much less because when he got a sidekick that was inferior to Brunson (and closer to Porzingas), he 3-peated, while Luka did nothing with Brunson or Porzingas.

tons of players consistently shoot 45%+. peak shaq ('93-'03) averaged 58% on 19 FGA. but even jump shooters like weber, or modern players who shoot majority 3pters (that jordan never attempted) like curry, have 10+ seasons with 45% FG.

all this list does is filter for the highest volume shooters oat, which is obviously going to correlate with FG%

Why are you citing efficiency on 19 FGA?

That's low burden compared to Jordan - Jordan shot 60% on 19 FGA too

But only Jordan consistently shot well at very high volumes.. we saw lebron play like Iverson in 15' Finals (but got props for it) and shot like crap at MJ's volume and burden and defensive attention.

no one had Jordan's burden of possessions (usage), scoring burden, or carrying the scoring load (facing max defensive attention), and also carrying weak help over top teams (beating top 5 SRS or Finals teams with bed-wetting sidekick, aka weak scoring & efficiency).

Jordan did all these things as a standard, while everyone else did them as one-offs or not at all.. No one ever won as usage champ, except Jordan did it 5 times, while the only guys that won as scoring champ were peak Shaq in 00' and peak Kareem in 71', plus Jordan's 6 titles - so their peak burden was the GOAT's standard burden.

Ultimately, Jordan has better stats than Lebron in PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TO'S, FT %, usage, ORTG, Team Assists, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, clutch stats, game-winner efficiency, raptor, and plus/minus (here and here)... Otoh, Lebron leads DREB, TS and APG.. The category of TS is due to Lebron's ball-dominant, drive-heavy game (less ball-movement), while the APG advantage is due to ball-domination and less ball movement (hogging the assists, so the team assists are lower).

Curry TS is boosting by the 3pts shooting and Shaq and Lebron boosted by 3 feet and less basket made .
It’s such a bs stats that can’t be compare through era , especially since the 3pts shooting been so drastically changed .
Much better to go by fg% .

^^ facts

PPG and FGA

00-02' Playoffs

Shaq........... 29.9... 21.3 FGA
Kobe........... 25.3... 20.8 FGA


11-14' Playoffs

Lebron....... 26.9... 18.9 FGA
Wade.......... 20.3... 16.2 FGA


16-17' Playoffs

Lebron....... 29.3... 20.5 FGA
Kyrie........... 25.5... 20.3 FGA


2020 Playoffs

Lebron........ 27.6... 18.2 FGA
AD............... 27.7... 17.6 FGA


91-93 Playoffs

MJ................ 33.7.... 25.6 FGA
Pippen........ 20.0.... 16.1 FGA


96-98 Playoffs

MJ................ 31.4.... 24.7 FGA
Pippen........ 17.6.... 15.3 FGA

^^^^ Only MJ carried a big burden...

Only MJ carried the scoring load, aka faced max defensive attention, while Lebron, Shaq and Curry had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for at least half their title runs, and never carried the load on any of their runs like MJ did.. The only exception is Shaq in 2000.

2007 League average TS vs Lebron

Playoffs - 53.0
Lebron - 51.6


2008 League average TS vs Lebron

Playoffs - 53.2
Lebron - 52.5


2015 League average TS vs Lebron

Playoffs - 52.6
Lebron - 48.7


2021 League average TS vs Lebron

Playoffs - 57.1
Lebron - 56.4

Jordan never shot below league-average true shooting, while Lebron did all the time, as shown above.

The 2015 Playoffs was the closest that Lebron got to an "MJ burden" and he shot horrifically - he was far below league average - he played exactly like Iverson with worst-ever efficiency and defense, but the spineless media gave him credit for it.. It's especially bad because the Warriors didn't double-team Lebron and left him alone on an island with the most secluded and consistent clear-outs that the game has ever seen... But the high shooting volume required more jumpers, which destroyed LeBrick's shooting efficiency.

History shows that MJ's combination of volume and efficiency is peerless - no one is remotely close to his combination of burden and efficiency.. Despite Jordan's greater burden, his efficiency per possession (ortg) is higher than Lebron's and his true shooting is only 2 percentage points less despite a jumpshooting and ball movement approach (winning approach) - this contrasts with Lebron's ball-dominant, drive-heavy game that boosts efficiency but hurts brand of ball compared to Jordan.

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Pippen 101

History shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or peak Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. He was never a "franchise player" that was required to build anything, and instead he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'.. It wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, Pippen was exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, and this includes 3-peat dynasties as we saw in 95'.

Many people use Pippen's passable play in the 91' and 92' Playoffs to show that Pippen was viable, but they were massive exceptions to the rule that Pippen had bad playoff efficiency such as true shooting or shooting splits, and weak playoff numbers overall - he was a historic bricklayer/lane-clogger and low-scorer with zero clutch and low peak capability (not on scouting report according to Shaq)..

The 93' Playoffs was the lowest combination of PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, and TS for any winning sidekick since the 3-point line was instituted - he averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique in the 1st Round, while getting 0% on threes and 59% on FT"s in the Finals (46.9 TS)... Meanwhile, the 96' and 98' runs showed the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG, which means MJ won with the goat bricklayer/lane-clogger at sidekick.. Pippen afforded opposing coaches the rare luxury of sagging off into the paint and his low peak scoring capability meant that he didn't require double-teaming, so he simply wasn't on scouting reports (a fact that Shaq confirmed publicly). . Pippen averaged 19 on 42% for his Finals career and 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, so imagine if AD achieved these numbers - there's no amount of defense that would save him from getting destroyed by media and removed from top 75, while getting traded in that offseason.. Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89' or 01-03' (no burden in these years), and 91'.

And even though the 91' and 92' Playoffs stick out as viable runs for Pippen, he actually wet the bed in the 92' Playoffs when he was dominated by X-Man in the 2nd Round, which nearly caused massive upset loss.. People forget the many debacles by Pippen because no one tracked Pippen's play - he was not held accountable or blamed for wins and losses.. This is because no one thought Pippen was a "go-to" player, or a threat to "go off" and start dominating - not the key factor.. Pippen was mostly a dunker in the Derrick Jones mold, except he got 4 years to learn a role in a system that yielded 15-20 ppg.. Otherwise, he was worse than Jeff Green outside this system by averaging 14 ppg on 43% in 1989 and 1999 - the Houston debacle of 14 ppg was just a few months after averaging 20 in the system for the Bulls.. Houston HATED pippen and couldn't believe this was the guy that won 6 rings.

Pippen's foundation of "just a dunker" gave him a low peak capability.. Teams never worried about him going off and he wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq, which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) in virtually ever series of his career.. This is unprecedented by a long shot because everyone in history needed teammates to lead the team in scoring for entire playoff runs, so Jordan leading every series by 10-30 ppg is unparalleled and GOAT.. (edit: there are 3 series where MJ led Pippen by "only" 9, 8, and 4 ppg... every other series was 10-30 ppg more than Pippen).. Furthermore, many 1st options enjoyed all-time floor generals as sidekicks that averaged 10 assists like Payton, Stockton, KJ or Hardaway, while MJ was forced to tolerate Pippen's 5 assists and lead him in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs (3 title runs).

Sidenote - Pippen was outscored by the majority of opposing SF's in his playoff career, and people lose sight of this when they see that he sometimes outscored opposing 2nd option guards that were underperforming against MJ, such as Stockton, Porter, Starks, Dumars, Isiah, Price, Harper, Majerle, Steve Smith, etc, etc.. Guys like Terry Porter dominated with 26 ppg and 8 assists in the WCF but then cratered to 16 ppg against MJ - this is standard and the clear-cut trend of opposing guards against MJ - the double-teaming schemes and greater onslaught wears them out defensively, so they have less capacity for offense.

Rudy Gobert enters the GOAT conversation