Cheating In The Main Event? Was Tamayo's WSOP ME Win Unethical?
Doug Polk has released a video showing Tamayo's rail clearly using a laptop for assistance. You can also see Joe McKeeha
The problem is the framework people are using depends on the player.
You claim that the WSOP have no problem with the Foxens so we shouldn’t either. Ok then , the WSOP has no problem with Jake Schindler or Ali I so we should stay out of it . Yet someone else brought them up for the millionth time and my post was in response to that.
You’re also arguing Kahle Burns should have protected himself rather than it be done by officiants. By that logic, I’ve seen it argued Jordan Griff m
You have to admit though Martin Kahbrel stuff was weird. I watched final table telecast, he was doing some really weird stuff trying to look at cards. He’s his own case.
I just reintroduced myself to Kahle Burns vs Foxen. He said, “I might have been a naive moron and put those two in an impossible situation but…”. Sentence needed to end there. I also looked at some hands people thought questionable but I found them, especially the AA vs JJ hand, to seemingly be on up and up. They are absolutely going to adjust their ranges (tighten) and error on side of pot controlling. Literally impossible to differentiate between reads on each other and soft playing/collusion.
Point is not every case is same and I don’t think Tony G is out be a meanie towards kahbrel but has a man crush on Foxen.
If you don't have agreement from tournament organizers of enforcement, then the threat of getting caught slow playing diminishes. How much depends on which organizers agree to enforce it, and which ones don't.
I imagine WSOP agreeing to enforce slow play would be a great start. Hopefully it would cascade down to the other orgs.
I don't see whats ambiguous about this. They had someone on the rail running a solver (Monkersolver) and browsing GTO solutions in real-time. That's unambiguously cheating.
Someone said police / fair game is poker players job and others seems to agree…
Ofc it’s not ! We pay rake to pay dealers, floor, security etc.
Just a thought, but if Nitsche et al think this is all ok on camera in the biggest FT of the year, what else do they think is ok online in SCOOPs etc?
I guess those deluded into thinking all this is ok are probably rationalizing it to stock trading, or making bids on property.
I understood the team was using it during all in decisions, no? That is most certainly real time.
They were communicating after there was an all in and call. But what was being communicated was probably based on earlier hands.
What they were doing was horribad imo but not in real time.
I don't see whats ambiguous about this. They had someone on the rail running a solver (Monkersolver) and browsing GTO solutions in real-time. That's unambiguously cheating.
how did this change how hands were played?
was he looking at preflop charts for the next hand (so he knew if.he was going to limp or raise) or was he reviewing how he should have playred previous hands
does anyone has a theory on how browsing a monkersolver solution between hands materiallly changed how he played?
Someone said police / fair game is poker players job and others seems to agree…
Ofc it’s not ! We pay rake to pay dealers, floor, security etc.
Lol not exactly
It’s more accurate to say that poker players need to be ever vigilant and take steps to protect themselves from being cheated and/or angled. This is most important thing.
Ex: Chance Kornuth pump fakes you. Who is supposed to do what exactly? Not falling for the pump fake is basically the only thing.
This has been brought up many times, but all of cameras and so forth are there to protect them and their interests not the players. Now of course along the way they might try and help you if they can, but mostly only to prevent dealing with gaming
Consider yourself on your own, but system in place makes it harder for them to operate
I'm not sure what would happen if gaming got involved.
Nevada GC specifically is very strong and has rules against electronic devices while playing.
If they did this vs the casino, they'd do serious time. It was poker so no one cares, including like half of poker players, evidently.
how did this change how hands were played?
was he looking at preflop charts for the next hand (so he knew if.he was going to limp or raise) or was he reviewing how he should have playred previous hands
Not attacking you Teddy because you're not alone but just that general viewpoint.
does anyone has a theory on how browsing a monkersolver solution between hands materiallly changed how he played?
This is why there is an issue. Instead of realizing that there's a problem on the surface from the laptop/constant advice/possible earbud, some are actually considering how they might be innocent.
I'm always the guy who looks out for the defendant in court but poker is a game by yourself and "technology or devices that help your gameplay" (not verbatim I know) is simply not allowed. It sickens me that this kind of behavior is even considered ethical.
Not attacking you Teddy because you're not the only one but simply the entire viewpoint.
I've talked to DOM, and he said that he spoke with WSOP officials to ensure that he was within the rules.
I think the detractors know that it was perfectly legal. They are just trying to pretend that it isn't because they know just saying "I hate solvers and this hurts my feelings", makes them sound really stupid (not that this red herring fixes that problem)
No.
That is stupid. That is not what they are saying.
Obviously you do not comprehend that poker is 100% about exploiting worse players and using a laptop to do so makes it to obvious. Good for Tamayo but bad for future pros
I don't care if this is legal, ethical , morally right etc... the optics of it are terrible for the game.
We can argue all we want , but it's too late... the damages are done. Do I think this is going to lower next year's main event numbers or something ? No probably not. But do I think some casual or random who stumbles upon these videosi n the future is going to be put off on playing poker ... yeah.
There's already a huge stigma around online poker that it's filled with bots , rta and collusi
I do not disagree with this sentiment and I actually recced it.
That said, most casual average Joe's aren't thinking of this. They are happy to make it intonthe money. Making the top 50 is a dream on the level of sleeping with the hottest Hollywood scarlet. Finishing 2nd to a borderline cheater is a dream unheard of.
Same reason Alex and Kristen Foxen can softplay and Chance Kornuth can pump fake bus chips against amateurs , then lead the charge for a poker blacklist against guys like Kahbrel, when no evidence was ever presented that he marked cards.
It’s only half about game integrity. Popularity and politics is the other half.
PokerNews has the allegations against Kahbrel on his profile but mentions nothing of the softplay accusations against Foxen on his.
Cheating will always be a problem in poker bec
If you do not understand the Foxen softplay that us on you and not them. Think at a deeper level.
The problem is the framework people are using depends on the player.
You claim that the WSOP have no problem with the Foxens so we shouldn’t either. Ok then , the WSOP has no problem with Jake Schindler or Ali I so we should stay out of it . Yet someone else brought them up for the millionth time and my post was in response to that.
You’re also arguing Kahle Burns should have protected himself rather than it be done by officiants. By that logic, I’ve seen it argued Jordan Griff made a major blunde
I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to understand the Foxens. Think in terms of leveling. Youn will quickly arrive at the right answer.
In my humble opinion, my thoughts are that people are competing for $10 million dollars. That is life changing money so of course they are going to push every single edge they can. They are going to go as far into the grey area that they can get away with. In that moment, money is more important to then than other factors.
That said, they have shown you exactly who they are. I have seen plenty of other people act differently in similar situations. Next time you are considering playing against Joe or Nichtke, just remem8what is most important to them. They do not care about reputation, they care about money and pushing the slightest edges no matter how bad it looks for them.
I can understand that, but I can also say eff them.
They were communicating after there was an all in and call. But what was being communicated was probably based on earlier hands.
What they were doing was horribad imo but not in real time.
I think thats the crux of the situation. Were they discussing current of previous hands? If the former its cheating if the latter its a bad look but not cheating.
I think thats the crux of the situation. Were they discussing current of previous hands? If the former its cheating if the latter its a bad look but not cheating.
What about the third scenario. Generating ranges to show what is correct for the next hand? It's not the current hand, it's not the previous hand. Is this ok?
Dominic made some in your face statement that he would do whatever to improve the value of his share in tamayo. They haven't explained what they were doing. They coudl deny they were helping with hands in progress, but they have not explained at all.
The problem is the framework people are using depends on the player.
You claim that the WSOP have no problem with the Foxens so we shouldn’t either. Ok then , the WSOP has no problem with Jake Schindler or Ali I so we should stay out of it . Yet someone else brought them up for the millionth time and my post was in response to that.
You’re also arguing Kahle Burns should have protected himself rather than it be done by officiants. By that logic, I’ve seen it argued Jordan Griff made a major blunde
Outstanding post.
