Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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So basically wipe out gaza. If we object we must be antisemitic.
There has to be a ceasefire. Sorry but we can't let you dismiss it because of some weak claim about impossibility
How do you have a ceasefire when the side that starts a war, is losing it badly, has zero leverage, is still very belligerent, and is making completely unreasonable demands to ceasefire, that no one thinks they would honor anyways?
What is the path to a ceasefire other than Israel just giving in to all of Hamas demands, which wouldn't even give them hostages back anytime soon, and then letting Hamas rearm to attack them again, which they promise to do?
How do you have a ceasefire when the side that starts a war, is losing it badly, has zero leverage, is still very belligerent, and is making completely unreasonable demands to ceasefire, that no one thinks they would honor anyways?
What is the path to a ceasefire other than Israel just giving in to all of Hamas demands, which wouldn't even give them hostages back anytime soon, and then letting Hamas rearm to attack them again, which they promise to do?
We've disagreed a lot itt, but you're not wrong here.
So basically carry on until gaza is totally destroyed or occupied
You think that will make everything good?
So basically carry on until gaza is totally destroyed or occupied
You think that will make everything good?
Total occupation isn't crazy if an honest counterinsurgency effort were performed. I don't trust it would be performed, but theoretically speaking, such a thing is in Israel's interest to establish a peaceful society there. And it's in Gazans' interest to no longer be human shields for IDF target practice.
The status quo of a Hamas-led Gaza is far more insane. You really don't see that?
It is crazy. Ir might just be murderously horrible if it was only gaza but there are so many other fronts.
Israel can bring international support into a ceasefire way forward. If they carry on regardless it may well end up out of their hands
It is crazy. Ir might just be horrible if it was only gaza but there are so many other fronts.
Israel can bring international support into a ceasefire way forward. If they carry on regardless it may well end up out of their hands
How does reconstructive reparations happen without occupation? Just give money to Hamas? That'll end well.
We are so far off from anyhting ending well that it's sadly imposible to start there.
At the moment we have to try to start to stop digging a deeper hole. Do you think if netanyahu etc continue then it's going to end well?
We are so far off from anyhting ending well that it's sadly imposible to start there.
At the moment we have to try to start to stop digging a deeper hole. Do you think if netanyahu etc continue then it's going to end well?
I'm not saying events should be allowed to continue as is. I'm saying that Gaza needs to be occupied to be rebuilt.
Israel are not going to ve accepted as an occupying force . Not by Gaza and not by others.
If that bridge existed then Netanyahu has burned it to the ground.
How do you have a ceasefire when the side that starts a war, is losing it badly, has zero leverage, is still very belligerent, and is making completely unreasonable demands to ceasefire, that no one thinks they would honor anyways?
What is the path to a ceasefire other than Israel just giving in to all of Hamas demands, which wouldn't even give them hostages back anytime soon, and then letting Hamas rearm to attack them again, which they promise to do?
what demands are unreasonable?
they want Israel to withdraw and to allow themselves to rebuild the area. like, thats simply basic human rights.
So basically wipe out gaza. If we object we must be antisemitic.
There has to be a ceasefire. Sorry but we can't let you dismiss it because of some weak claim about impossibility
The implication of this post is you think enough of Gazan residents support Hamas and its actions on Oct 7 as to make them indistinguishable from Hamas.
There "has" to be a ceasefire is just a wish, it's not a solution.
If your ceasefire keeps a militarized and unchanged Hamas in power. Even if Israel caves and agrees this time, it's just kicking the can down the road for a grander day of reckoning.
Hamas told us so.
looks like the JDAM shipment arrived
Indeed that's what the post I responded to claimed.
It's nonsense but it is how people try to justify Netanyahu actions
We are so far off from anyhting ending well that it's sadly imposible to start there.
At the moment we have to try to start to stop digging a deeper hole. Do you think if netanyahu etc continue then it's going to end well?
Again, Israel taking gloves off vs. its Arab neighbors, Hizbollah, and Iran to this day serves as strong deterrent. Why do you think Hizbollah and Iran have been so measured in their responses/escalations and have practically begged for an off ramp at every escalation point?
Appeasement got them suicide bombers and utlimately Oct 7th.
this is from a few days before the bombing
Again, Israel taking gloves off vs. its Arab neighbors, Hizbollah, and Iran to this day serves as strong deterrent. Why do you think Hizbollah and Iran have been so measured in their responses/escalations and have practically begged for an off ramp at every escalation point?
Appeasement got them suicide bombers and utlimately Oct 7th.
That's a bit odd. People have argued that israel has to attack hezbollah because the status quo is working well for hezbollah and Iran. Also gets ridiuclous when them not wanting to start a major war is being used against anyone. Let's take not wanting to start a major war as some baseline form of sanity whether we expect to win or lose.
From your previous post
There "has" to be a ceasefire is just a wish, it's not a solution.
Of course it's not a solution. Nor is military action or an occupation. To repeat myself again we are way off from a solution being a part of the discussion.
Yes It's also a bit of a wish. I expect netanyahu to escalate.
I think chezlaw means Israel can't be the occupying force but maybe he would accept other countries militaries?
It's not about what I would accept or what I want.
Gaza might accept someone else as a friendly force/occupier one day. I suspect it wont be something Israel like at all but netanyahu is taking Israel down such a disasterous path that the world may be more sympathetic - we are seeing this start with countries recognising gaza.
It's not about what I would accept or what I want.
Gaza might accept someone else as a friendly force/occupier one day. I suspect it wont be something Israel like at all but netanyahu is taking Israel down such a disasterous path that the world may be more sympathetic - we are seeing this start with countries recognising gaza.
Countries aren't recognizing Gaza afaik, they are recognizing a Palestinian state made of Gaza and the West Bank (not sure, in those recognitions, what the claim about Jerusalem is)
Ireland, Norway, and Spain have announced they will formally recognise a Palestinian state from 28 May.
Spain and Ireland said the decision was not against Israel nor in favour of Hamas, but rather in support of peace.
Israel reacted angrily, warning the move would mean more instability in the region and recalling its ambassadors to all three countries.
Both Hamas and its rival, the Palestinian Authority, have welcomed the recognition.
[URL="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4nn78r3w3ko"[/URL]
UK has made similar noises and I believe well over 100 countries already do,
A minority of European countries already recognise a Palestinian state. They comprise Hungary, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Bulgaria which adopted the position 1988; and others including Sweden and Cyprus.
But many European nations - and the United States - say they will recognise a Palestinian state only as part of a long-term political solution to the conflict in the Middle East.
This is often referred to as the "two-state solution" where both Israelis and Palestinians agree to have their own states with their own borders.
European countries and the US differ over when they should recognise a Palestinian state.
Ireland, Spain and Norway say they are doing so now to kick-start a political process. They argue there will be a sustained solution to the current crisis only if both sides can aim at some kind of political horizon.
These countries are also responding to domestic political pressures to show more support for Palestinians.
In the past, the position of many Western countries was that Palestinian statehood should be a prize for a final peace agreement.
But Lord Cameron, the UK Foreign Secretary, and some other European countries have in recent months shifted their positions, saying the recognition of Palestinian statehood could come earlier, to help drive momentum towards a political settlement.
[URL="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4nn78r3w3ko"[/URL]
UK has made similar noises and I believe well over 100 countries already do,
Yes as i wrote, no one (afaik) recognizes "Gaza" as an independent state.
Which begs the question, once you recognize a palestinian state exists, which are the lawful rulers of that state? who are you going to talk to?
Ireland and Spain are predictably anti-Israel. None of the counties that matter are going to recognize a Palestinian state governed by Hamas. Replacing Hamas with a group whose sole purpose is not the destruction of Israel and it’s inhabitants is a prerequisite.
