Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Would you blame previously peaceful Palestinians if some of them had become radicalised by the genocide against them and their families into supporting war against Israel?
Idk about blame. I recognize that Israelis and Palestinians are both being radicalized, it’s a two way street. I just also believe that individuals have agency and there are more options available to the Palestinians beyond 1) submitting to Israel and 2) Supporting a terrorist regime. We see Israelis advocating for ceasefires and protesting their government. Idk how long it will take, but eventually there has to be a Palestinian who wants to pursue a 3rd option.
Idk about blame. I recognize that Israelis and Palestinians are both being radicalized, it’s a two way street. I just also believe that individuals have agency and there are more options available to the Palestinians beyond 1) submitting to Israel and 2) Supporting a terrorist regime. We see Israelis advocating for ceasefires and protesting their government. Idk how long it will take, but eventually there has to be a Palestinian who wants to pursue a 3rd option.
I havent seen any Israeli protest over the treatment of Palestinians. or rather, not with the demand for better treatment and humanity. there have actually been quite a few with the demand for worse treatment.
anyway, Palestinians arent really radicalized. or maybe they are. its indeed considered radical by Westerners that a native population should have human rights.
Would you blame previously peaceful Palestinians if some of them had become radicalised by the genocide against them and their families into supporting war against Israel?
No, but there is no reason to think lower percentages of palestinians agreed with terrorism decades ago.
Support for armed attacks against Israel was 45% in 1999
Idk about blame. I recognize that Israelis and Palestinians are both being radicalized, it’s a two way street. I just also believe that individuals have agency and there are more options available to the Palestinians beyond 1) submitting to Israel and 2) Supporting a terrorist regime. We see Israelis advocating for ceasefires and protesting their government. Idk how long it will take, but eventually there has to be a Palestinian who wants to pursue a 3rd option.
Not necessarily, because unlike Israeli, palestinians who strongly disagree with what's going on do move away, and already did in large numbers in the past.
A portion of what could be seen as "radicalization" is just the non-radical going away . Which is a very different claim than saying that non-radicals decide it becomes morally justified to start killing jews.
Not necessarily, because unlike Israeli, palestinians who strongly disagree with what's going on do move away, and already did in large numbers in the past.
A portion of what could be seen as "radicalization" is just the non-radical going away . Which is a very different claim than saying that non-radicals decide it becomes morally justified to start killing jews.
Then I hope we eventually see a group of non-Gazan Palestinians who acknowledge a 3rd option and try to find a solution that doesn’t involve supporting groups like Hamas. Maybe comprised of these non-radicals who have left Gaza but still have an interest in bettering the Gazan’s situation. If such a group exists, I’ve never heard of it. The west also doesn’t necessarily have time to wait for something like that to naturally occur. Also, sadly, it doesn’t seem like such a group would have much traction with the necessary parties.
Then I hope we eventually see a group of non-Gazan Palestinians who acknowledge a 3rd option and try to find a solution that doesn’t involve supporting groups like Hamas. Maybe comprised of these non-radicals who have left Gaza but still have an interest in bettering the Gazan’s situation. If such a group exists, I’ve never heard of it. The west also doesn’t necessarily have time to wait for something like that to naturally occur. Also, sadly, it doesn’t seem like such a group would have muc
afaik West Bank residents when polled structurally always are in favor of more violence than Gaza residents, at least that was the case every time i checked polls which divided the 2 territories.
Even right now we are at around "only" half of Gaza residents pro hamas vs like 70%+ in the West Bank
Not sure why you think someone who left 10+ years ago should have a say though, they exist in many other countries and live normal lives and are happy to have escaped the horrors of islamo-fascism
Would you blame previously peaceful Palestinians if some of them had become radicalised by the genocide against them and their families into supporting war against Israel?
do you blame any israelis radicalised by the many rapes and murders carried out by hamas against civilians on oct 7?
yes of course you do
no, they were radicalized far before
afaik West Bank residents when polled structurally always are in favor of more violence than Gaza residents, at least that was the case every time i checked polls which divided the 2 territories.
Even right now we are at around "only" half of Gaza residents pro hamas vs like 70%+ in the West Bank
Not sure why you think someone who left 10+ years ago should have a say though, they exist in many other countries and live normal lives and are happy to have escaped the horrors of islamo-fascism
There have to be some Palestinians who still have family there or just have an interest in helping their people. Imo just the existence of some moderate Palestinian org interested in advocating for something other than “from the river to the sea” would be helpful.
I agree though, it’s probably safe to assume that a lot of the Palestinians who left the area are just trying to live normal lives and don’t want to deal with that **** anymore.
A Palestinian activist known for organising anti-Hamas protests in Gaza has been taken to hospital after an attack by a group of masked men.
Amin Abed, 35, was admitted in critical condition after being kidnapped near his home by five assailants on Monday afternoon.
A well-known activist, Mr Abed told the BBC: “I will not stop using my right to express my rejection of the 7 October attack."
There have to be some Palestinians who still have family there or just have an interest in helping their people. Imo just the existence of some moderate Palestinian org interested in advocating for something other than “from the river to the sea” would be helpful.
I agree though, it’s probably safe to assume that a lot of the Palestinians who left the area are just trying to live normal lives and don’t want to deal with that **** anymore.
what if there was a Palestinian org that would agree to the 1967 borders and demilitarization?
There have to be some Palestinians who still have family there or just have an interest in helping their people. Imo just the existence of some moderate Palestinian org interested in advocating for something other than “from the river to the sea” would be helpful.
I agree though, it’s probably safe to assume that a lot of the Palestinians who left the area are just trying to live normal lives and don’t want to deal with that **** anymore.
In theory if a palestinian state with full sovereignty ends up existing, they are going to write down exactly who is a citizen , and who can vote , and the palestinian diaspora situation is going to be a very hot potato for them to decide upon, mostly because who decides which body decides to begin with, about the diaspora?
Like say you get a commitee to write down a constitution, elected by the people (as we did say in italy after ww2 to create a republic), who votes for that commitee? and are then palestinians elsewhere losing their refugee status if they can come back home at any time, and with it the money we pay them?
There is a long series of very hard problems which i never hear people talking about when discussing the creation of a state there, but it's clear why those problems aren't discussed, they don't actually want a 2 states solution, Hamas wants to delete Israel not to settle as a neighbor of Israel
well that is their offer but...lets just say its some other hypothetical. my theory is that that would not be acceptable to you.
thoughts and prayers?
"nothing will change"
kinda want to post the pics of the plastic bags full of human remains. but Id proly get banned even tho it just looks like a bunch of used rags.
anyway, vote Kamala, enjoy brunch
well that is their offer but...lets just say its some other hypothetical. my theory is that that would not be acceptable to you.
So this hypothetical group keeps the hostages while Israel gives up a large amount of land and security? I get that we all have our biases, but how does that seem like a “fair” offer. And at this point I don’t see the Israelis settling for something “fair” when they hold all the cards.
So this hypothetical group keeps the hostages while Israel gives up a large amount of land and security? I get that we all have our biases, but how does that seem like a “fair” offer. And at this point I don’t see the Israelis settling for something “fair” when they hold all the cards.
right so ya, this post was bullshit. appreciate the honesty and I do mean that sincerely.
Idk about blame. I recognize that Israelis and Palestinians are both being radicalized, it’s a two way street. I just also believe that individuals have agency and there are more options available to the Palestinians beyond 1) submitting to Israel and 2) Supporting a terrorist regime. We see Israelis advocating for ceasefires and protesting their government. Idk how long it will take, but eventually there has to be a Palestinian who wants to pursue a 3rd option.
I don’t see returning the hostages as submitting to Israel, more so the obvious first step towards any good faith negotiation. Anyways, this hypothetical group does not exist.
well Hamas did offer the hostages back on like day 1. Israel did not want them.
but we are talking hypothetically.
hamas break all promises and go back to raping every single time, which is one of the many reasons that they just have to go. sorry.
Mass rape?
FWIW, the IDF announced the strike in question was against a Hamas/Islamic Jihad cell operating out of a school. Keep in mind schools in Gaza have been shut down since last November, so even emphasizing the "school" aspect of it is an attempt to emotionally manipulate the audience in question.
According to the IDF it was extremely precise, with no or minimal collateral damage. Israel has even given a list of 19 operatives that were killed in the strike. Hamas has already admitted their initial claim of 100 casualties was bullshit. It is quite possible there was no collateral damage at all.
And the entire propaganda against this strike is just complete lies and bullshit. So the usual.
(list of Hamas/Islamic Jihad casualties from the strike)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-sla...
