Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I think it is a mistake to overstate Jordanian support for Israel. The Jordanian govt is a Western installed autocratic monarchy. The Jordanian people (many of whom are descendants of refugees from Israel) aren't particularly enthused about their own govt and dont support Israel or Israelis. They are very into the BDS movement and boycotting Israeli/Jewish/American goods.
The Jordanian govt has taken a neutral position towards Israel only because they are bribed to do so by the West, that provides them with weapons and security. As part of these deals Israel also provides them water.
I don't think any "support" they have for Israel goes much beyond this. Without Western influence creating stability in the Kingdom, Jordan probably would have been toppled by Islamic Brotherhood/Hamas a long time ago and be firing rockets into Israel right now.
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is Sunni; and has no problems taking Iranian weapons to attack Israel. And if the power/govt stability dynamics in Jordan were different, I dont think the Jordanian people would be having any moral/theologic qualms doing the same.
I think it is a mistake to overstate Jordanian support for Israel. The Jordanian govt is a Western installed autocratic monarchy. The Jordanian people (many of whom are descendants of refugees from Israel) aren't particularly enthused about their own govt and dont support Israel or Israelis. They are very into the BDS movement and boycotting Israeli/Jewish/American goods.
The Jordanian govt has taken a neutral position towards Israel only because they are bribed to do so by the West, that pr
we can have somewhat different perspectives on Jordan but it's that bit in bold that clearly matters.
It sems obvous to me that netanyhau is making a very bad for Israel,shift in these dynamics signifciantly more likely. I assume others dont see it the same.
we can have somewhat different perspectives on Jordan but it's that bit in bold that clearly matters.
It sems obvous to me that netanyhau is making a very bad for Israel,shift in these dynamics signifciantly more likely. I assume others dont see it the same.
Fair enough. I admit I dont know enough about Jordanian internal politics to know how great a chance of the monarchy getting overthrown is, or how much the current war could be shifting things in that direction. I dont think you know either, but I will agree directionally it can only really go one way. I dont think Iranian aggression is driving the Jordanian people into Israel's arms, even if the govt is getting closer with Israel as a matter of pragmatism.
I agree I dont know much (anything really) abut internal jordan politics But we have fair idea of the type of forces involved and they can potentially blow any status quo away.
there's also a few seeminglky decent articles on the internet about the pressures building on Jordan among others
With the possible exception of UAE, whose population really does seem to be liberalizing; I dont think we can understate how much the Arab Muslim populace (Sunni and Shiite) has been radicalized by Al Jazeera, Telegram, religious propaganda; and how hostile they are to Israel.
And the local Sunni govts are constantly engaged in a balancing act of appeasing their antisemetic populaces, mitigating Iranian (mostly successful) efforts to destabilize the region, and making pragmatic alliances with the West/Israel.
if anyone's been radicalized by anything, it's the violence and impunity of israel. aka reality
And the point I keep making is that netanyhau actions are enabling them greatly.
Part of the political route for Israel has been to build ties with once hostile countries. Despite those who say it's failed, it's actually been pretty succesful and was continuing. Netanyahu is risking it all and enabling those who want to radicalise and resume hostilities with isreal. It's disasterous and the only winners are the extremists.
Most of the formerly hostile countries are “formerly” hostile because Israel utterly crushed them, repeatedly in most cases.
Appeasement enabled Hamas.
if anyone's been radicalized by anything, it's the violence and impunity of israel. aka reality
This thread has radicalized, remember when we were all assured that the IDF was going to take out Hamas and let everyone return to their homes? Now it's sort of taken for granted that they're either going to annex it all or turn it into a no-mans-land demilitarized zone.
Most of the formerly hostile countries are “formerly” hostile because Israel utterly crushed them, repeatedly in most cases.
Appeasement enabled Hamas.
To put it crudely: Israel fought for it's existence and it won. Then it worked with some serious success on political solutions. Netanyahu is risking all the hard fought for progress. That is insanity
And the point I keep making is that netanyhau actions are enabling them greatly.
Part of the political route for Israel has been to build ties with once hostile countries. Despite those who say it's failed, it's actually been pretty succesful and was continuing. Netanyahu is risking it all and enabling those who want to radicalise and resume hostilities with isreal. It's disasterous and the only winners are the extremists.
I think history has shown it has been a giant mistake to treat Hamas like a secular govt. with rational political objectives. This isn't Jordan, or Egypt, or even the PA. These are sincere theocrats. And it should not be understated how much aid has been squandered in the last 20 years militarizing Gaza, instead of being used to materially improve the lives of the people, and how there is no expectation this should improve unless Western nations stop enabling such antisocial behavior.
In other news Hamas announced they have started executing hostages. They announced 3 have been recently shot, with 1 dead and 2 severely injured.
I am guessing this tactical change is some combination of putting pressure on Israel to accede to their ceasefire demands and slow rolling the reality many (most?) of the hostages have already been executed.
In other news Hamas announced they have started executing hostages. They announced 3 have been recently shot, with 1 dead and 2 severely injured.
I am guessing this tactical change is some combination of putting pressure on Israel to accede to their ceasefire demands and slow rolling the reality many (most?) of the hostages have already been executed.
The blip I read made it sound more like one (or more?) of the guards went rouge and shot some hostages. Not that executing the hostages is some new policy Hamas is implementing as your post seems to infer.
The blip I read made it sound more like one (or more?) of the guards went rouge and shot some hostages. Not that executing the hostages is some new policy Hamas is implementing as your post seems to infer.
The hostages were probably already dead. This is a good way for Hamas to make it seem like rouge members are responsible for their deaths. I think we will be seeing another School or Mosque liquified soon. My PSA to all Gazans is don't go near Mosques and schools that's were the terrorists are hiding.
The blip I read made it sound more like one (or more?) of the guards went rouge and shot some hostages. Not that executing the hostages is some new policy Hamas is implementing as your post seems to infer.
I know Hamas is implying it was a rogue guard, but I am skeptical this is the truth. We also have to keep in mind hostages were taken/held not just by Hamas, but other Islamist groups and civilians whom Hamas has little control over.
Trying to read between the lines, like Mongidig suggests this is likely the beginning of Hamas preparing the world for the reality many/most of the hostages are long dead. Of course they will say it was rogue guards/accidents/Israeli bombs and their sycophants in the Ummah and progressive left will unconditionally accept this version of events.
how can we all expect less civilians be killed when a major in the army (and a good percentage of the IDF and this thread feel )
To put it crudely: Israel fought for it's existence and it won. Then it worked with some serious success on political solutions. Netanyahu is risking all the hard fought for progress. That is insanity
Define serious success? They didn't even manage to get Jerusalem as the recognized capital.
They became victims of one of the worst terrorist attacks in history.
They were blamed incessantly by the UN.
The UNHCR (human right council) made approx the same resolutions against Israel than it did against all other countries in the world combined lol.
Political solutions failed miserably so it was absolutely necessary to change pace.
Dun, Mon,
Besides people who still believe in the tooth fairy, who thought more than a handful of the hostages are still alive and who thinks most of them died to the hands of Palestinians? Israel made their decision early on in the campaign that the hostages lives were secondary to Israel's vengeance and it's pretty easy to argue they weren't wrong. As you've said plenty of times, Israel had created the incentive structure to take hostages. Now, not so much. And what reason is there for Hamas to lie that they actually executed the hostages intentionally? To try to keep Israel from bombing Gaza back to the stone age? To try to make sure Israel doesn't assassinate their leadership abroad? Hopefully Israel doesn't torture and kill prisoners they hold? Like what card does Israel have left to play that Hamas needs to lie to avoid it?
Maybe they need to lie about killing the hostages because then they may lose support from the Marxist left? Seems like if they were concerned about that, they just wouldn't execute the hostages.
What's curious is why they came out and said anything to begin with. Most likely these hostages were on a list Hamas had provided to Israel during negotiations of who was left alive and their deaths need to be reported/accounted for as they are desperate for a ceasefire so they can stay in power.
how can we all expect less civilians be killed when a major in the army (and a good percentage of the IDF and this thread feel )
I'm sure there are people with these views in every war. Just amazing that they can't control the PR from their own soldiers.
Define serious success? They didn't even manage to get Jerusalem as the recognized capital.
They became victims of one of the worst terrorist attacks in history.
They were blamed incessantly by the UN.
The UNHCR (human right council) made approx the same resolutions against Israel than it did against all other countries in the world combined lol.
Political solutions failed miserably so it was absolutely necessary to change pace.
Some serious success
After several Arab-Israeli wars, Egypt was the first Arab state to recognize Israel diplomatically in 1979 with the signing of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. It was followed by Jordan with the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty in 1994. In 2020, four more Arab states (the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan) normalized relations.
and this was quite possibly happening
CAIRO, March 21 (Reuters) - The United States and Saudi Arabia have made "good progress" in talks on normalising ties between the kingdom and Israel, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Thursday without providing a timeline for concluding a deal.
"I believe we can reach an agreement, which would present a historic opportunity for two nations, but also for the region as a whole," Blinken said at a joint press conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry in Cairo.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
This was wobbling about
In recent decades, particularly under Turkey's Erdoğan administration, the two countries' relationship with each other has deteriorated considerably. However, diplomatic ties were reinstated after a normalization initiative in mid-2022.[6] Relations soured again after the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel
Probably some other stuff. It's a long hard slog.
And we're back to Iran likely striking soon.
no, israel should not tolerate an occasional flare-up from the rapist murderers next door in exchange for fewer deaths overall. and by the way, nor would you
as an aside - while i grant you that a ceasefire would pay significant immediate dividends in the form of fewer short term deaths, i'm unconvinced that allowing hamas to go back to degrading gazan society in pursuit of dead jews represents the greater good, which i think is instead served by a change in palestinian leadership
since you seem to be ok with current policy of killing Hamas at all cost.
would you be ok with similar policy of killing civilians if Hamas brass was hiding in Israel ?
'at all costs' is obviously not the current policy
to answer the question: of course
for example, i fully support the IDF's actions on oct 7 (being the liquidation of terrorists as they retreated back to their holes, some with hostages) despite the inevitable incidences of friendly fire from such
and, while this seems to be a minority view, i also think that allowing hamas to re-embed themselves in order to save the remaining hostages would be immoral (in the way that releasing 4000 terrorists or whatever it was to get back that one dude was immoral), and that whoever made such a decision would have a lot of explaining to do to the families of rape and murder victims caught up in subsequent hamas rampage(s)
'at all costs' is obviously not the current policy
to answer the question: of course
for example, i fully support the IDF's actions on oct 7 (being the liquidation of terrorists as they retreated back to their holes, some with hostages) despite the inevitable incidences of friendly fire from such
and, while this seems to be a minority view, i also think that allowing hamas to re-embed themselves in order to save the remaining hostages would be immoral (in the way that releasing 4000 terrorists or w
you still did not answer the question. Do you think IDF employs its current strategy and collateral damage policy if Hamas leadership was in Israel proper.
i would support bombing the hell out of the tel aviv school for the deaf if a bunch of hamas terrorists had turned it into a forward command post, and i think the IDF would do so yes
