Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ordered the book just now.
Edit: This better not suck btw. $55.....
Fyi, It shows as $19 on amazon for me. Also of note, many of the things Brzezinski's said would come true, eventually did as well. Some of which are stated in that book. I think the only thing he was slightly off on was America going into Syria, but that almost happened.
It's a good book if you want a global outlook from someone who actually made policy decisions. I'm not going to claim it's the best book, but it's one of my favs.
Justified... I don't know. I don't personally think so. But my main point was, how do you measure the appropriate response? Surely you acknowledge that if they don't respond, they get even more attacks. There's some measure of force that says, "don't even think about it again... because this is going to happen". That's why I used 9/11 a
Contrary to popular belief. We're in full agreement that Israel should hit back. I don't actually think Israel is in the wrong or is committing genocide. Being married to someone whose parents escaped a literal genocide and whose brother has very graphic stories to tell, it's quite insulting to hear people say **** like genocide.
With that being said, the discussion of appropriate proportional response is very interesting and I agree I have no clue either. I do want to add, the fact that people like Luciom and Phelps say ''no limits, kill them all'' is why I think they're nothing more than warmongers.
I'm just trying to push back on all of these false narratives of Palestinian victimhood. It's so preposterous, and far from the truth it's hard to ignore.
That's fair. I'm obviously equally baffled there's pro-Hamas people out there. I'm even more confused there's pro-Hamas lgtbq movements out there like Queers for Palestine.
Fyi, It shows as $19 on amazon for me. Also of note, many of the things Brzezinski's said would come true, eventually did as well. Some of which are stated in that book. I think the only thing he was slightly off on was America going into Syria, but that almost happened.
Might go to a few book stores tomorrow. The Amazon one won't arrive till Sep 5 anyways so will cancel.
But I'll def check it out. I'm almost done with ''Shitfy's War'' so needed something new anyways.
The head of Israel’s security agency, Shin Bet, has warned the country’s leaders that Jewish terrorism in the West Bank is out of control and has become a serious threat to national security.
Ronen Bar issued the warning in a letter to the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, the attorney general and members of the Israeli cabinet, some of whom are outspoken backers of the extremist settlers responsible for the escalating violence.
Bar’s letter, sent last week but published by Israel’s Channel 12 News on Thursday night, has highlighted the wide, acrimonious gap between the far-right wing of Netanyahu’s coalition and Israel’s security apparatus.
The national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, one of those criticised by Bar for inflammatory behaviour, called for the Shin Bet head to be fired, triggering a rebuke on Friday from the defence minister, Yoav Gallant.
Bar’s letter focused on Jewish extremists known as the “hilltop youth”, violent militants who have been conducting a campaign of murder, arson and intimidation against Palestinians on the West Bank, aimed at driving them from their land, furthering the far right’s pursuit of complete annexation.
....
The security chief, who has been in the post since 2021, said he had reluctantly decided to send the letter “with pain and great fear, as a Jew, as an Israeli and as a security official, about the escalating phenomenon of Jewish terrorism from the ‘hilltop youth’”, which he felt was approaching a tipping point.
“We’re on the threshold of a significant, reality-changing process,” Bar wrote. “The damage to Israel, especially at this time, and to the majority of the settlers is indescribable: a loss of global legitimacy even among our best friends, deploying IDF forces at a time the army, which isn’t meant to deal with these missions, is finding it difficult to carry out all its tasks.”
The nationalist leadership, Bar concluded, was “willing to jeopardise the state’s security and its very existence” in the name of their ideology.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/articl...
Another idiot who thinks netanyahu & co are a serious threat to israeli national scurity
Spoiler
yeah there's a reason why bernie and everyone didn't say permanent+ceasefire at the convention, because "ceasefire" now = you give us the hostages, and then we resume the genocide until it's complete
Hamas sort of left the Palestinians up shits creek with no bargaining chips.
you kind of give up the ghost there
Patriots don't put the security of a foreign country over the security of its own. The relationship with Israel isn't disinterested or ideological, but it's outdated and, therefore, relatively useless. Relative to the blowback Americans have faced for the relationship.
If Jews and Muslims want a society on that land, they'll have to work for it. The U.S. and Iran, et al. are just enabling belligerence.
The US and Iran are enabling belligerence because if we let things play out "naturally," Israel just kicks out the Palestinians and they move on to greener pastures. And for geopolitical reasons, neither Iran or the US wants this to happen.
I think the entire "embargo Israel" narrative shows a poor understanding of how much Western influence facilitates the Palestinians refugee populations to live in the West Bank and Gaza at all; and the most likely outcome of disrupting this balance is the Palestinian people being forced to leave.
I think it would actually be best for everyone, especially Palestinians, if this happened. But for various reasons most of the world seems to think it is a good idea for Gaza and the West Bank to be permanent belligerent refugee camps supported by Western largesse; so we essentially bribe Israel to let the status quo remain.
There was a ceasefire on October 6th, 2023 and Hamas violated it. Something they have done several times over the last 20 years. Hamas even acknowledges their ultimate objective is very much still to conquer Israel, and any ceasefire on their end is strategic, and they reserve the right to break it anytime at their discretion.
Most of Israel's enemies, especially Hamas, start breaking treaties/cease fires before the ink is even dry. And the status quo is that the transgressions would have to reach some sort of threshold before Israel responds in force. No one for a single second thinks Hamas will abide by whatever terms they agreed to.
With its current rhetoric, Israel is letting everyone know that the threshold for what they will let Hamas get away with before responding in this case is extremely low.
there was not a ceasefire on Oct 6 lol
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/202...
there was not a ceasefire on Oct 6 lol
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/202...
It is kind of funny how pretty much all of these "children" are 15-19 year old young men, who happen to be the demographic that makes up most of the "Resistance" actively fighting the IDF in the West Bank.
Regardless, "children" throwing Molotov cocktails and stabbing IDF soldiers (and often getting killed in response) are more or less a part of the 'peacetime' status quo.
But as you admit, any ceasefire will eventually be broken by Hamas, for reasons you and them find justifiable. In the context of the current 'ceasefire' talks, it is pretty much expected that whatever hostage deal they agree to, Hamas will not follow. And Hamas for their part acknowledges this, which is why they insist on wording that insists Israel abides by a ceasefire agreement even after they invariably break it; and Israel is not currently agreeing to this.
Judging people for killing tens of thousands of people and making millions homeless is hardly a "why don't you step in their shoes" scenario.
Also, I've been to Israel twice. It's a great place. I'd love to take my kids there over the West Bank or any Arab countries, but Israel being a great place doesn't legitimize its existence as is. Jews aren't the only people who live in the Israel-Palestinian region. And as long as they reject a more plural society, they're going to have an antagonistic rel
If you think an arms embargo on Israel while they are fighting wars with most of the Middle East is step 1 towards some sort of single state solution where everyone gets along, we will have to agree to disagree that is how things will play out.
And SA is more or less a failed state at this point, so offering this as an example of how things can work out for the best is kind of depressing. But I do think even this depressing outcome would be a best case scenario if some sort of 1 state solution was proffered, and more likely we would be looking at a Syria/Iraq/Lebanon civil war dystopia; with outside actors like Iran and Turkey causing tremendous mischief and damage.
It's an uncontested historical fact Mohammed personally led campaigns against and killed a whole lot of Jews.
At this point most of the evidence points to the Old Testament being fiction (sorry believers); and although Jesus and Muhammad were probably real people (but maybe not), their life stories were chronicled decades after their deaths by people who supposedly knew them, there is no direct evidence any of the things they were reported to have done actually happened, and so the veracity that any of the events in question actually happened should be taken with a grain of salt.
Regardless, religious texts giving accounts of the words and deeds of Muhammad have been used to justify very antisocial behavior by Muslims towards Jews (and a lot of other minorities); and pointing out that this isn't the car because most people got along most of the time is bad faith arguing IMO. You could make this argument for most sectarian conflicts resulting in tremendous human rights abuses. I am sure even the Tutsis and Hutus got along for the most part, until they didn't.
It is kind of funny how pretty much all of these "children" are 15-19 year old young men, who happen to be the demographic that makes up most of the "Resistance" actively fighting the IDF in the West Bank.
Regardless, "children" throwing Molotov cocktails and stabbing IDF soldiers (and often getting killed in response) are more or less a part of the 'peacetime' status quo.
But as you admit, any ceasefire will eventually be broken by Hamas, for reasons you and them find justifiable. In the con
Israel simply can do no wrong can they? Everything has an explanation or a justification.
If you think an arms embargo on Israel while they are fighting wars with most of the Middle East is step 1 towards some sort of single state solution where everyone gets along, we will have to agree to disagree that is how things will play out.
And SA is more or less a failed state at this point, so offering this as an example of how things can work out for the best is kind of depressing. But I do think even this depressing outcome would be a best case scenario if some sort of 1 state solution
I literally said that I'm fine with Russia and China supplying Israel. That's the opposite of an embargo. I generally respect your candor. Don't ruin it.
Israel simply can do no wrong can they? Everything has an explanation or a justification.
I dont really blame Israel or the Palestinians. I think the western world providing such a perverse incentive structure is the biggest problem. UNRWA should be dismantled yesterday, and the Palestinians should be treated like every other refugee population. The idea a single refugee group should be disproportionally be given so many resources, and completely bankrolled to fight generational Jihad to no productive end, on western largesse is absurd.
Genocide has been misused to the point it is a meaningless word at this point. But what Israel seems to be trying to do is create a new physical status quo vis a vis Gaza and the West Bank where their physical security is greatly enhanced moving forward. Whether this is necessary, or even a good idea, is a matter of conjecture. But it is more rational than what most Western nations think Israel should do, which is just go back to the status quo without even getting most of the hostages back.
Ok, I'm ignoring you now.
Look... you want to make up things, go ahead... if that makes you feel good about your virtue signaling or whatever tf you're doing... by all means.
But making up history to fit your narrative isn't ever going to lead to intelligent dialogue.
I'll say it one last time:
JEWS have been in Israel for THOUSANDS of years. They are indigenous to that area. They were DRIVEN into that area BY MUSLIMS... WHO... pushed them out of Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Turkey and Iran.
You guys want t
What was the population like in Palestine circa 1900? How many Palestinians lived there? How many Israeli/jewish people?
Why do you think that something being more likely means it’s definitive?
Looks like Palestinians are more indigenous than Jewish people in Palestine.
Your version of history is incorrect. Please adjust it
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