LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

This is bizaare

You're saying Hakeem would be an anchor like KG or AD but he's built nothing like them - he's built more like Rudy and DeAndre Jordan, so he'd be an anchor like them and therefore frequently obsolete and unplayable in today's format.

MJ's injury happened 1 week before his 39th birthday, so he was better than Lebron through 38 years old by virtue of leading a lottery team to the 4 seed and people whispering that they could come out of the East - that's better than Lebron at 34 years old when he was lottery with Ingram/Kuzma/Rondo/KCP/Ball.

And since the 2019 exposure and debacle, Lebron stacked the deck again by getting AD, which camouflaged his history as a losing player (lottery with Zydrunas, Ingram and Westbrook)... He needed stack the deck to be viable, and still mostly lost by virtue of the lowest ring frequency among top 10 candidates.

AD is a big dude

AD is 6'10" and skinnier than Hakeem

KG 6'11" and very skinny

Both are much bouncier and quicker than Hakeem - it's what they're known for, while Hakeem is bulky 7 footer and a slow plodder by comparison.

I'm sure if Rudy was 6'10" and skinny like AD or KG, he wouldn't have been obsolete in the latest playoffs.. But instead, he's a bulky, slow plodder like Hakeem, and therefore frequently obsolete when it's time for high-level playoff basketball (a bevy of high-screen rolls and consistently defending 30 feet from the hoop).

Are you really comparing Rudy with Hakeem ?
And Hakeem on the offensive end would be great in this era too.

I don't think we're talking about the same Hakeem Olajuwon. I get what you're saying but you picked the wrong example.

Comparing the 2 of them is like comparing LeBrons FTs to Curry's.

I long ago put Fall Guy on ignore but see a quoted post where he's comparing Hakeem to ****ing Rudy Gobert. Incredible stuff.

Hakeem had more power and arguably the best moves ever, but he wasn't as bouncy or quick as KG or AD, which is what is required in today's game - as you can see, less skill is required in today's game (less Hakeem) and more sheer hops and quickness (AD/KG)..

Notice how the spaced-out, hands-off beginner format (high-screen spammers) requires basic skills for all positions, aka "3-and-D" and "dunker spot" - basic skills... less pure basketball instinct is needed because it's basic 1 or 2-man basketball instead of 5-man like previous eras.

Didn't Hakeem lead the league in blocks and steals 1 year?

Pretty much instantly disappoves his point.

Yes Hakeem would obviously dominate offensively in today's spacing more than the 90's - the 90's post players faced closer help defenders and therefore less time to make their move, so the move had to be super-polished and great..... Otoh, in today's game, Hakeem would have all day to make his move like Jokic does due to further help defenders (spacing) and therefore would dominate even more than before.

But where are people getting the idea that Hakeem was a good defender 25 feet away from the rim??.. No one can know that information because we never saw him do that.. And even the bounciest and quickest big men are liabilities against good ball-handlers to a certain extent, which is why today's game reduces the defensive impact of ALL bigs compared to prior eras, not just Hakeem or Rudy - all bigs are less impactful away from the rim, which is why their impact doesn't cross over eras as well as MJ - this makes MJ the greatest defender ever..

MJ was a goat-level defender in the 80's or 90's, and he'd have even more impact today by virtue of all the plays being on the perimeter instead of the post.. He was such a frequent help defender back then because all the plays were on the post.
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Bird and Hakeem both average 1.7 SPG.

But even without knowing that SPG is only lowly-correlated with the ability to keep a quick ballhandlers in front 25 feet from the rim, no one has ever seen Hakeem defend 25-30 feet from the rim, so no one can know that information.. otoh, we DO know that even the bounciest and quickest big men are liabilities against good ball-handlers to a certain extent, which is why today's game reduces the defensive impact of ALL bigs compared to prior eras, not just Hakeem or Rudy - all bigs are less impactful away from the rim, which is why their defensive impact doesn't cross over to today's era as well as MJ - this makes MJ the greatest defender ever..

MJ was a goat-level defender in the 80's or 90's, and he would have even more impact today by virtue of all the plays being on the perimeter instead of the post.. He was such a frequent help defender back then because all the plays were on the post.

I know but it would still be a **** show in the endgame .

Saying MJ added more defensive value than Hakeem and comparing Hakeem to Gobert are two different conversations. Don't back into the bushes on the second one.

The larger point is that today's game reduces the defensive impact of all bigs compared to prior eras due to playing further from the rim, just like guards have always done - today's game reduces bigs to guards on defense on any given possession.

Since bigs are less impactful away from the rim, their defensive impact doesn't cross over to today's era as well as MJ - this makes MJ the greatest defender ever..

maybe so, i dunno.
all i know is big are still needed in todays basketball so i dont know what you try to say.
i would love to have hakeem in my team still today shrug

It's funny how guys are making stuff up about Hakeem.

NO ONE thought Hakeem could guard KJ or Tim Hardaway back in the 90's, even on a switch... EVERYONE thought that was a horrible matchup that should never take place.. He was not viewed as someone that could guard perimeter players and such an idea was considered absurd and a huge mismatch.

So this idea that Hakeem was guarding Tim Hardaway and MJ - it's absurd - he wasn't - he never did and it was considered a big mismatch to avoid at all costs.

Off course Hakeem is valuable in today's game just like Embiid is nice to have - but Embiid's defensive impact is less today than the great bigs of yesteryear - it's much harder for him to average 4-5 blocks and control the entire game like Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem did.. Due to this reduced impact on defense, I would prefer MJ or peak Kawh DEFENSIVELY over Hakeem in today's game, or even 25-29 year old Lebron ... I would prefer all these guys DEFENSIVELY in today's game over Hakeem and I think that makes a ton of sense for the reasons mentioned earlier - today's format forces bigs away from the rim and turns them into guards defensively.. Hakeem cannot dominate on defense in this capacity like he did in the 90's

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GOAT video by Uncut Hoops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ks17_-7...

Time Stamps

0:22 - Adam Silver says that the 90's rules prevented offensive skill from being displayed

3:26 - the lowest-scoring playoff runs ever were between 97-04' (toughest era ever)

3:53 - video examples of standard euro-steps and layups called as travels in previous eras

4:33 - KG and Pierce state exactly why today's era isn't more skilled

5:11 - Video clip of Harden compared to clip of Kobe to show the effectiveness of less dribbling

6:20 - Split-screen of Kobe/Harden to show the difference in spacing

6:43 - Split-screen of Kobe/Harden to show how defensive 3 seconds mandates a clear paint on Harden's drives

7:07 - Video of Lebron waiting for defensive 3 seconds to clear the paint of help defenders before driving

7:15 - Luka telling Reddick how the NBA is a much easier format than Europe

8:26 - Today's mid-range volume leader would rank 29th in volume in 1997

9:11 - Toughness and playing through injuries is part of a player's skill

9:41 - 3 times as many guys played 82 games in late 90's compared to today despite modern advancements

10:37- KG says that previous eras were more like Olympic-style play

In the history of basketball, MJ was the only player that arrived on a lottery team AS THE LEADER FROM DAY 1, and then built this trash to champion

Arenas concurs, here.

Building a champion from scratch MATTERS because it means you would've won regardless of where you landed, and also that you learned the chemistry required to win with what you have, aka learning to win (organic).

Kobe produced better teams with a 2nd option in Pau that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options of Love or Bosh.. This is an objective demonstration of Kobe's superiority.

His goat scoring diversity fit with everyone, so he elevated players like Pau and therefore produced better teams, while Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles and reduced Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Jamison, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, IT and more to produce inferior teams.

Kevin Love had never finished higher than All-NBA 2nd team but was seen as a Top 3 player (He had made only 2 all nba teams in his first 6 years)?

IT?

ITT, Kobe was better than LeBron, Hakeem was slow, Pippen was a bum, and now Kevin Love was a top-3 player in the league.

The hits keep coming.