Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Hamas likely is since their reason for being is opposed to an Israeli state. Hezbollah less so since they’ve been relatively restrained since the beginning of this most recent mess. And Israel has absolutely not made a good faith effort to curb its own provocations. That’s a large part of the reason this situation arose.
Hundreds of rockets launched at civilians isn't "restrained" by any objective standard other than one of sheer apathy and numbness.
Yes Hizbollah could have done more but Israel is the only country asked to take that **** lying down.
And to the extent Hizbollah chose to not do more it's because Israel kicked its ass before and Hizbollah did not want to repeat that experience.
It's Israel's prerogative to restore deterrence and the entire international community needs to do some soul searching on the incentive structure it has put in place for the terrorists in the region.
In response to Bubbles post, It really is clownish how liberals just normalize and euphemize extreme violence as long as it is coded "resistance."
There is nothing restrained about having a giant foreign funded private army sitting on the border of another nation (in violation of a UN treaty they signed less than 20 years ago), threatening that nation repeatedly over decades, and then firing thousands of drones and rockets into said nation
That is a declaration of war. And if the world order wasn't a giant epistemological wasteland and moral failure the entire world would be aiding Israel unconditionally to get rid of Hezbollah.
Holocaust scholar Omer Bartov explains
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In response to Bubbles post, It really is clownish how liberals just normalize and euphemize extreme violence as long as it is coded "resistance."
There is nothing restrained about having a giant foreign funded private army sitting on the border of another nation (in violation of a UN treaty they signed less than 20 years ago), threatening that nation repeatedly over decades, and then firing thousands of drones and rockets into said nation
That is a declaration of war. And if the world order w
yes it would definitely be easier to murder and steal land if the occupants didnt shoot back.
Hundreds of rockets launched at civilians isn't "restrained" by any objective standard other than one of sheer apathy and numbness.
Yes Hizbollah could have done more but Israel is the only country asked to take that **** lying down.
And to the extent Hizbollah chose to not do more it's because Israel kicked its ass before and Hizbollah did not want to repeat that experience.
It's Israel's prerogative to restore deterrence and the entire international community needs to do some soul searching on th
Pretty funny how someone who struggled recently with people intentionally not reading the word “relatively” in their post is doing the same now when it suits them.
As far as I’m aware, Hezbollah has focused on military targets since Oct 8. Yes, of course the restraint is because they fear retribution. The point is that that makes them a somewhat rational player, more so than Hamas.
No serious critics are saying the bolded. They’re rightly pointing out Israel’s hypocrisy and refusal to acknowledge its own part in the creation of this situation.
1) Do you think Palestine has the right to exist?
2) Do you think Palestinians should have the right to vote on the government that controls them?
3) If yes, what happens to Israel?
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Israel lives in peace next to the country of Palestine, a fully self controlled, self governed entity (much like it does with Egypt and Jordan).
4) Should it choose to attack Israel again, the country of Palestine would then be fair game to completely destroy in a completely legitimate war, and then lose tremendous amounts of land and resources, as this is what happens after any war between 2 independent countries.
5) #4 is why Hamas does not want an independent country. It is why they want to destroy Israel, instead. Hamas would never stop attacking Israel, even if they ruled an independent country.
Now answer my original question.
In response to Bubbles post, It really is clownish how liberals just normalize and euphemize extreme violence as long as it is coded "resistance."
There is nothing restrained about having a giant foreign funded private army sitting on the border of another nation (in violation of a UN treaty they signed less than 20 years ago), threatening that nation repeatedly over decades, and then firing thousands of drones and rockets into said nation
That is a declaration of war. And if the world order w
I haven’t mentioned nor do I buy the arguments of resistance from the left so don’t put words in my mouth. You as usual have trouble reading. I said relatively restrained. As in, they’re not a completely suicidal death cult. They’re making calculations for their survival. Meaning they can potentially be reasoned with. This has nothing to do with morality.
Do you guys just read nothing but straight far-right news? My opinions on this subject are basically straight out of Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, The Economist, etc. It’s hardly some lefty Islamist apologia to notice that Hezbollah and Iran have been relatively (there’s that word again) hesitant and calculating in their actions since Oct. 7.
As far as I’m aware, Hezbollah has focused on military targets since Oct 8. Yes, of course the restraint is because they fear retribution. The point is that that makes them a somewhat rational player, more so than Hamas.
.
The vast majority of their rockets having no aiming mechanism, and the casualty ratio of civilians to soldiers they have killed is 1:1.
How in the world can you claim a group that has fired thousands of rockets with no aiming mechanism to be "focusing on military targets."
It is actually interesting seeing all the Hezbollah rockets fired at Israeli coastal communities landing in the ocean (Iron Dome calculates they pose no harm to civilians and doesn't shoot them down) and realize just how much work Iron Dome is doing keeping the people of Israel safe from Hezbollah's random rocket fire.
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Israel lives in peace next to the country of Palestine, a fully self controlled, self governed entity (much like it does with Egypt and Jordan).
Now answer my original question.
Your position is moot. Israel has finished absorbing the West Bank and stated openly that it will not allow a Palestinian state.
The only moral position remaining is that Palestinians of the WB and Gaza should have the right to vote, with full civil rights in a non-apartheid state.
Since the Arabs would then be the majority, the proper conclusion would be a democratic, binational Palestine.
No, Israel does not have the right to exist as an apartheid state.
I haven’t mentioned nor do I buy the arguments of resistance from the left so don’t put words in my mouth. You as usual have trouble reading. I said relatively restrained. As in, they’re not a completely suicidal death cult. They’re making calculations for their survival. Meaning they can potentially be reasoned with. This has nothing to do with morality.
Their (IRI and basically Hezbollah, which functions as an Iranian proxy) literal goal, which they dont hide at all, is complete destruction of Israel. They just calculate what you call "restraint" is the best way to get there.
If a serial killer only kills one person a year to lessen their chances of being caught, do you think it a good idea to praise them for their "restraint." I dont.
Nasrallah practically alone at the top.
Pretty funny how someone who struggled recently with people intentionally not reading the word “relatively” in their post is doing the same now when it suits them.
As far as I’m aware, Hezbollah has focused on military targets since Oct 8. Yes, of course the restraint is because they fear retribution. The point is that that makes them a somewhat rational player, more so than Hamas.
No serious critics are saying the bolded. They’re rightly pointing out Israel’s hypoc
I addressed the "relatively" point in the second paragraph and if you need it spelled out, Hizbollah's "relatively" restrained is not "restrained" in a meaningful way.
Hizbollah is not targeting military targets in any meaningful way either. The ammos they are using are too inaccurate to "target" anything.
Of course they are rational actors. The point is the presence of Iran warps the incentives so the rational action, unless Israel bomb the living **** out of them, so far has been to keep attacking Israel to the maximum extent the international community will ask Israel to just take lying down. Bombing the living **** out of them has been the only thing that has worked so far. And that result is no small part due to Iranian prodding and a combination of western apathy and naivete.
Dang, crazy how Iran is forcing Israel to invade Lebanon, it's somehow robbed Israel of all agency.
just incomprehensible. they continually find new ways to torture.
Dang, crazy how Iran is forcing Israel to invade Lebanon, it's somehow robbed Israel of all agency.
Well, obviously if you are a raging antisemite who believes Jews should be genocided from the river to the sea, the IRI having a proxy army on the border of Israel to terrorize and kill Jews is an acceptable status quo. But those of us that disagree with you that this is how things should be, can see that Iran through Hezbollah has declared war agains the state of Israel, and Israel and the rest of the world should be acting accordingly.
If there is such a thing as Hezbollah when the smoke has cleared, it will be just another moral failure on the "international order"
anti-Persian conspiracy theories itt
What are the chances that Hezbollah actually backs down or is a ground invasion inevitable at this point?
Israel didnt have much success invading in 2006. everyone seems to think they will have less success now considering how much better equipped HB is and how much anti-tank weaponry has advanced.
Israel didnt have much success invading in 2006. everyone seems to think they will have less success now considering how much better equipped HB is and how much anti-tank weaponry has advanced.
The 1982 invasion didn't do much good either. Killed a lot of people, but only destabilised Lebanon even further and left Israel less secure on that flank, QED.
if they go into Lebanon, which is looking more and more likely, they wont leave unless the Liberation forces drive them out. many of their leaders, media, and politicians are openly talking about stealing the South and East and settling it.
I would not be shocked at all if they did that, but we are looking at a large timeframe with a lot of unknowns that would first include Lebanon being death trap to live in.
I don't think we can accurately speculate what Iran will or will not do in defense of Hez - solely based on word of mouth that Iran denied Nas and said it wasn't the right time. If Iran was still actively supporting and funding Hamas and Hez and played a role in oct 7th - and i don't think they really did, Iran would at least have a gameplan that involved a serious war with Israel as none of Israel's response to Oct 7th were of any surprise.
If Hamas and Hez have been acting as the lone wolf as of late, and Iran doesn't want anything to do with defending them, then that serious disconect on what Hamas and Co were attempting to accomplish - if it involved anything strategic at all.
I'd imagine that there is still a very credible chance that Iran could be planning something, and their lack of declared interest would make sense. But if They don't, then this was all a major **** up on the likes of Sinwar and Nas.
The 1982 invasion didn't do much good either. Killed a lot of people, but only destabilised Lebanon even further and left Israel less secure on that flank, QED.
An Israel with Hezbollah on its border attacking them for 11 months straight; and moving forward threatening to to attack them anytime they do something Hezbollah doesn't like is not an Israel that can thrive. Hezbollah has shown themselves to be an existential threat to Israel's existence, that cannot be ignored moving forward.
Israel pretty much has to do whatever it takes to take away Hezbollah's ability to intimidate, threaten and attack them. It is going to result in a lot of bad for everyone except for the IRI (especially the people of Lebanon); but Israel literally doesn't have a choice if it wants to be a functional first world country that thrives.
Now if there is a diplomatic solution where Hezbollah agrees to abandon the border of Israel or better yet dissolve; then that is preferable. But if Hezbollah refuses to abandon the border at a minimum, Israel literally has to do what it takes to neutralize the threat. Even if it "doesn't do much good."
I mean, if you are radical Islamists sycophant and want Israel to be destroyed, and dont care how many people are killed and nations destroyed in the process, then carry on. But if that isn't the case, at some point you have to accept the IRI and its proxies are presenting an existential threat to Israel, and at some point will be dealt with as such.
If Hamas and Hez have been acting as the lone wolf as of late, and Iran doesn't want anything to do with defending them, then that serious disconect on what Hamas and Co were attempting to accomplish - if it involved anything strategic at all.
I'd imagine that there is still a very credible chance that Iran could be planning something, and their lack of declared interest would make sense. But if They don't, then this was all a major **** up on the likes of Sinwar and Nas.
The IRI gives Hamas and Houthis weapons, but has no control over their tactics. Hezbollah is a proper IRI proxy that is kept on pretty short leash. It wasn't an accident the IRI ambassador to Lebanon was injured by the pager attack, as it was his Hezbollah issued pager. That is the level of control IRI has over Hezbollah, and Lebanon itself.
