Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Up until a few days ago it seemed like Hez was legit doing their best to only target military targets but Blue brought up specifically atgm's the other day. A quick Google
https://archive.ph/fv6wm
Blue,
The kids sniped in the head evidence continues to mount. Not a great look for you guys.
not good that they shot a few presumed civilians. still, not nearly the extent that the IDF had been killing Lebanese civilians prior to the invasion. thanks for the article.
You don’t need to have fought in a war to have read of the countless incidents of war crimes that occur in wars on all sides and the routine denial and attempts at cover ups. Of course civilians also get killed in the way you describe by people that did not want to kill them. But to frame things as if that explains all the death is not at all believable. I’m curious what you th
I'm 100% in favor of a deal, even a "bad" one, that will bring back the hostages. I would have been protesting too, if not...
yes you do have to serve to understand what war is and how you have to make split second decisions all day, and doing it all in the worst circumstances, as you are tired, scared and such.
if you never been under fire, or in real hostile environment, you really do not understand "the rules of engagement". this is not a video game or movie, you act first, as trained, and deal with the outcome after.
it is really easy painting an action after the fact as a "war crime". for anyone that served, it is almost devoid now of meaning, and no more than an empty buzz word. and trust me, i know what real war crime is.
I explained before why sadly it happens. moreover, there are many combatants who are under age, that are counted as children. but i agree that every person who dies in this sad war (yes - even hamas operatives), is a tragedy. the only push back I have really, is that you are a generation who grew up believing that the world owes you peace. sadly, it is not the reality of 90%+ o
I have a lot of sympathy with your personal circumstances but does it not worry you that the people leading your war don't share anything like your liberal values. Or do you think netanyahu and the more extreme people he needed until very recently do share your values?
I have a lot of sympathy with your personal circumstances but does it not worry you that the people leading your war don't share anything like your liberal values. Or do you think netanyahu and the more extreme people he needed until very recently do share your values?
i am left wing and usually vote for a party named Meretz, so I'm not really represented in this coalition.
never voted for likud or netanyahu and would love to see him in prison.
having said that, the likud party is a liberal party. i don't agree with there agenda, but cant really argue against that fact.
Ben Gvir is a Nazi and also an idiot. i know him personally from my job, before he entered politics. terrible minister and overall incompetent human. most of his party are not much better.
the Hasidic jews that are in the coalition (shas and yahadut hatora) are even worst in some manners.
overall, the worst government we had.
also the rules for use of force in occupied territories. Israel is allowed to do a "policing action" and must preserve the welfare of civilians. this is decidedly not that.
I'm 100% in favor of a deal, even a "bad" one, that will bring back the hostages. I would have been protesting too, if not...yes you do have to serve to understand what war is and how you have to make split second decisions all day, and doing it all in the worst circumstances, as you are tired, scared and such.if you never been under fire, or in real hostile environment, you re
I really think you don’t need to serve to understand that that happens. I’m not claiming it doesn’t or that I would behave differently if I were in the same circumstances. I get it. I’m not expecting soldiers to operate without making mistakes. Mistakes aren’t what I’m talking about.
I’m saying it’s a zero possibility that there aren’t actual war crimes being committed, because it routinely happens in war. There are many documented cases of coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan having done so and those soldiers had much less reason to hate the population.
well, the courts disagree. as do most human rights and IHL observers.
and really, the abstract classification doesnt matter. its an area that has been under siege and subject to routine massacres.
IDF only withdrew to the periphery. The borders were still sealed. No airport allowed. No fishing beyond three miles.
You really don't think there was friendly fire deaths, particularly from helicopters on 10/7?
Isn't there a credible account of a house being stuck by a helicopter?
well, the courts disagree. as do most human rights and IHL observers. https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/08/12/icj...https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/fi...
and really, the abstract classification doesnt matter. its an area that has been under siege and subject to routine massacres.
IDF only withdrew to the periphery. The borders were still sealed. No airport allowed. No fishing beyond three miles.
even the ICJ distinguishes between the west bank, east Jerusalem, and Gaza. read the decision, not the articles about the decision.
the borders with Israel were not sealed, as ten of thousands of workers came in and out of Gaza every day.
even so, as ofc you know, Gaza has a border with Egypt, that is way way way more sealed and guarded than the Israeli border. and Gaza was a part of Egypt once.
as for the air port, well they had one, and it was only bombed by us after they used it to arm their self's to the teeth.
FYI, when I was a little kid, we could have entered Gaza and go to the market, the beach. Palestinians from Gaza could travel almost un-interfered to Israel. than came the first Intifada.
we defiantly have a shared responsibility to the conflict. but you exempt the Palestinians completely, which is a re-wright of history.
You really don't think there was friendly fire deaths, particularly from helicopters on 10/7?
Isn't there a credible account of a house being stuck by a helicopter?
That was a tank. Google Yasmin Porat. She was a survivor. There was another survivor but I can't rember her name.
well, the courts disagree. as do most human rights and IHL observers.
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/fi...
That was outside the scope of their ruling. They were only concerned with considering the entirety of Palestinian territory as one unit.
By the way funny enough their preferred solution is also a two state solution… Just saying…
You really don't think there was friendly fire deaths, particularly from helicopters on 10/7?
Isn't there a credible account of a house being stuck by a helicopter?
12 people were shot dead by a tank in Beeri. maybe some more were caught in crossfire, but there is no real evidence of that.
zero israeli's civilians were gunned down by helicopters. i have so many people i know who were eye witnesses, including survivors and soldiers who came to the rescues.
in fact, the helicopters unit was not on duty on that day, that's why it took them hours to start engaging. even than, they were almost devoid of intel, so they were un helpful at first.
That was outside the scope of their ruling. They were only concerned with considering the entirety of Palestinian territory as one unit. By the way funny enough their preferred solution is also a two state solution… Just saying…
im a big supporter of the two state solution, or a federation. both will be a dream come true
12 people were shot dead by a tank in Beeri. maybe some more were caught in crossfire, but there is no real evidence of that.zero israeli's civilians were gunned down by helicopters. i have so many people i know who were eye witnesses, including survivors and soldiers who came to the rescues. in fact, the helicopters unit was not on duty on that day, that's why it took them hou
Yeah, maybe I was thinking of the tank incident.
even the ICJ distinguishes between the west bank, east Jerusalem, and Gaza. read the decision, not the articles about the decision.the borders with Israel were not sealed, as ten of thousands of workers came in and out of Gaza every day. even so, as ofc you know, Gaza has a border with Egypt, that is way way way more sealed and guarded than the Israeli border. and Gaza was a pa
That was outside the scope of their ruling. They were only concerned with considering the entirety of Palestinian territory as one unit. By the way funny enough their preferred solution is also a two state solution… Just saying…
maybe either of you could point me to the part where it says Gaza isnt occupied. bc the part that checkraise cited makes it pretty clear they are ruling Gaza is indeed occupied.
maybe either of you could point me to the part where it says Gaza isnt occupied. bc the part that checkraise cited makes it pretty clear they are ruling Gaza is indeed occupied.
I didn’t say they said Gaza wasn’t occupied. I said they didn’t consider it as part of the scope of their ruling. They considered all areas as part of one discrete unit called the Palestinian Occupied Territories.
In fact if you read further they criticized Israel for not carrying on their duties as an occupier, heavily implying they should be more involved with setting up Palestinian government. I doubt you would be in favor of that.
