Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
That's flat-earth batty. The Pals have left only IIRC 22% of the land granted by the UN in 1948. They are the losers. They've been losing land since 1900 and are still losing land. The Israelis have had the upper hand since the 1930s--before they were even Israeli.
I also don’t analyze conflicts based completely on which side has the upper hand. Try reading the history and see who has been the aggressor and who has offered land and peace multiple times.
lots of dead terrorists today
some weird rumours swirling about that guy who replaced soleimani. 'suffered a heart attack while being questioned about his role in the collapse of hezbollah'
when you start wars, sometimes the unintended consequence is that you lose territory.
Which wars are you saying the Palestinians started? 1967 was an Israeli war of choice, in response to Egyptian maneuvers. 1948 saw a massive ethnic cleansing by the Israelis -- which started in 1947, long before the Arab Legion attacked.
Try reading the history and see who has been the aggressor and who has offered land and peace multiple times.
Israel has only offered a peace in terms of second class citizenship. It has never offered a state or an end to the military occupation, particularly at Oslo.
Which wars are you saying the Palestinians started? 1967 was an Israeli war of choice, in response to Egyptian maneuvers. 1948 saw a massive ethnic cleansing by the Israelis -- which started in 1947, long before the Arab Legion attacked.Israel has only offered a peace in terms of second class citizenship. It has never offered a state or an end to the military occupation, partic
Maybe in your revisionist interpretation of events, but the fact is that Israel has offered land and peace multiple times throughout history.
Maybe in your revisionist interpretation of events, but the fact is that Israel has offered land and peace multiple times throughout history.
Where, when are you even talking about? Oslo? Madrid?
Are you asking when Israel has used land for peace to achieve peace?
You're not actually asking that, right?
After losing numerous attempts to destroy Israel, getting 90% of the West Bank, plus some land in Israel proper, was a great offer. As Clinton said, they weren't going to get a better offer. EVER. But the Palestinians made their choice and the rest is history.
I doubt it would have worked anyways. Outside funded state within a state militant groups like Hamas would have never gone along with it, and would have derailed the process anyways. But they didn't even try.
The real moral failure has been the rest of the world propping up the Palestinians forever war of conquest, and looking the other war to absolutely horrible, antisocial behavior; guaranteeing nothing ever gets better.
Again, all of this happened generations ago. The idea that someone has some sort of claim to some land because their great grandparents might have been kicked off it, and gets to fight a generational war to reconquer it on the UN's dime, is absurd. If the rest of the world had this dynamic we would all just be fighting nonstop.
How many of us are living on the land our great grandparents lived on? How well do you think it would go if you just woke up some day and decided the rest of the world had an obligation to support you while you indefinitely fought to reconquer this land?
The entire premise is completely absurd.
Oslo, camp david, Olmert’s offer in 2008. Maybe none of these were up to your standard though.
How about by your standards.
There never was an Israeli offer that included an end to the military occupation of the West Bank. Would you want to live under IDF occupation? Would continued Israeli occupation of Area C, snaking in and around 165 parcels of Palestinian land meet your standards?
After losing numerous attempts to destroy Israel, getting 90% of the West Bank, plus some land in Israel proper, was a great offer. As Clinton said, they weren't going to get a better offer. EVER. But the Palestinians made their choice and the rest is history.I doubt it would have worked anyways. Outside funded state within a state militant groups like Hamas would have neve
ok I mean this is ofc a lot of bullshit but I am going to put that aside to focus on the original argument. you guys claimed that there was going to be a trade of land for peace. when all I see is that Israel was going to take more land and most of the settlements. doesnt seem like a fair trade! actually doesnt even seem like a trade!
Does anyone else find it pretty wild that the UN has spent billions of dollars maintaining a 10,000 person strong "peacekeeping" force on the border of Lebanon (where the US portion is 25%) that has done jack **** but watch Hezbollah set up an army on the border over 18 years and in the last year attack Israel for 11 months straight. And now that Israel is attempting to go in and stop this, they are basically functioning as human shields for Hezbollah.
Seriously, can we get these clowns out of there and can we get a refund for all the money wasted. Just give all the military equipment to Ukraine and send the 10,000 buffoons home. Let Hezbollah get their own human shields that I am not paying for.
someone needs to tell the UN not to believe their lying eyes
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
everyone with half a brain knew this was the case on the day they bombed that hospital in Oct. (and anyone with a brain or who lived in Palestine knew years ago).
someone needs to tell the UN not to believe their lying eyes https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...everyone with half a brain knew this was the case on the day they bombed that hospital in Oct. (and anyone with a brain or who lived in Palestine knew years ago).
Well I guess if Hamas said so it must be true
Israel says that Gaza's militants operate from the cover of built-up populated areas including private homes, schools and hospitals and that it will strike them wherever they emerge, while also trying to avoid harming civilians. Hamas denies hiding militants, weapons and command posts among civilians.
How about by your standards.
There never was an Israeli offer that included an end to the military occupation of the West Bank. Would you want to live under IDF occupation? Would continued Israeli occupation of Area C, snaking in and around 165 parcels of Palestinian land meet your standards?
I don’t think any of the offers were implying permanent military occupancy. Any deal has to allow Israel to defend its borders and civilians, sorry if that’s a deal breaker for you. Here we’re getting to the crux of the issue, Israel has offered land and peace many times and it always gets turned down. You either want peace and land or you don’t, this is how negotiations go. Maybe the present is preferable in your mind over other hypothetical paths that could have happened if the Palestinians accepted a deal for peace and land in the past century. They might be a thriving nation, but we will never know in our lifetimes.
Oslo, camp david, Olmert’s offer in 2008. Maybe none of these were up to your standard though.
Just look at the land they already returned after the various wars. We don't have to imagine, it's already happened. MANY times.
Israel is targeting the Gaza health care...
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), between 7 October 2023 and 30 July 2024, Israel carried out 498 attacks on health-care facilities in the Gaza Strip. A total of 747 persons were killed directly in those attacks and 969 others were injured, and 110 facilities were affected.
Hundreds of medical personnel, including three hospital directors and the head of an orthopaedic department, as well as patients and journalists were arrested by Israeli security forces in Shifa’, Nasr and Awdah hospitals during offensives. In at least two cases, senior medical personnel died in Israeli detention (see paras. 70–72). Reportedly, 128 health workers remain detained by Israeli authorities as at 15 July, including four Palestine Red Crescent Society staff members.
If they are detaining hospital directors, that's not collateral damage from attacks on Hamas.
As at 15 July, 113 ambulances had been attacked and at least 61 had been damaged.
Medical facilities in the West Bank were also attacked. WHO documented 520 attacks on health-care facilities between 7 October 2023 and 30 July 2024, resulting in 23 people killed and 100 people injured.
The Commission received reports about the deliberate, direct targeting of hospitals, including Awdah, Shifa’ and Nasr hospitals, with sniper fire. In one example, on 13 February, Israeli security forces issued an evacuation order to Nasr Hospital. Shortly after the order was issued, a handcuffed Palestinian detainee dressed in a white protective suit was observed in the hospital, allegedly ordered by Israeli security forces to notify the people to evacuate. Upon leaving the hospital, he was allegedly shot and killed by Israeli security forces.
The settlement blocks of Area C are permanent. They divided Palestine up, so to cross the street to go to the bakery, you have to go through a check point. Sure, no permanent military occupancy of what was supposed to be Palestine, but Palestine would be crisscrossed by militarily occupied settlements.
Any deal has to allow Israel to defend its borders and civilians,
Same goes for the Palestinians.
Now that the IDF is opening fire on Irish peacekeepers, I'm excited to see all of the crude ethnic stereotypes that the usual suspects here are going to trot out. Remember, "Irish" is a nationality and not a race, so it's okay to call them violent savages!
they injured a bunch of Sri Lankan peacekeepers today too. they have fired on like 4 different nationalities of UN peacekeepers over the last few days. its ok bc they ordered them to evacuate first.
a few days ago Bibi begged and threatened the Lebanese to start a civil war with Hezbollah. today the IDF is blasting Lebanese soldiers. seems fine.
Does anyone else find it pretty wild that the UN has spent billions of dollars maintaining a 10,000 person strong "peacekeeping" force on the border of Lebanon (where the US portion is 25%) that has done jack **** but watch Hezbollah set up an army on the border over 18 years and in the last year attack Israel for 11 months straight. And now that Israel is attempting to go in
Unlike the UNRWA facilities in Gaza, the UN peacekeeping facilities/bases in Lebanon don't seem to be actively occupied/used by the Hizbollah.
Your claim holds very little water and IDF got a lot to answer for.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-...
Fact check: Irish Defence Forces said its troops were not targeted in Lebanon
However, Óglaigh na hÉireann, the Irish Defence Forces, confirmed that its positions in Lebanon had “not been subject to incoming fire” and that all its personnel were safe and accounted for.
This was confirmed by Micheál Martin, Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Defence. He said that “no Irish troops were involved. All are safe and accounted for”.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-...Fact check: Irish Defence Forces said its troops were not targeted in Lebanon
now do the same fact checking with the Sri Lankans who were injured, Indonesians who were injured, and Italians who were shot at.
but its cool, apparently they just used the Irish as human shields.
