Israel/Palestine thread

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-...

This is a fraction of the documents and intel extracted by Israel, about the intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran.

For anyone who keeps arguing it is not a existential war, I really have nothing to say

Was just posting it as it was contested earlier in the thread if there was any evidence to the claim.
If one of my loved ones were killed being one of those peacekeepers I'd be upset at Hez/Israel but would blame whoever ordered them to stay there the most.

i would like to understand from Victor and friends something - i do understand what Israel is not to do and how awful is everything. to a small degree i even agree.

what is not discussed is, what Israel should do. what will be the solution to the situation in large.

Look, large parts of this thread are fraudulent in my eyes, because a group of a half dozen people have refused to acknowledge this basic truth.

Here are the truths I acknowledge:

-The Israeli right has not been good for peace. It had been good for the Israeli economy (no longer). Bibi is at best a horrible leader and at worst worthy of a spot in hell. The Israeli right got there because the Palestinians did nothing to embrace the left during the long window it had to make peace with them.

-The Israeli far right is a horror show, many settlers are insane

-There are settlements we'd all be happy to see dismantled, and there's a track record of dismantling them on withdrawal

-The human rights situation in Gaza is abhorrent

-The struggle for independence of the Jewish state has left the Palestinians as victims of a very challenging fate. I think Gaza should have remained part of Egypt when it was recently Egypt, but here we are.

That I can state those things and a half dozen others, in good faith, should tell people a lot. That we cannot even for a second have the half dozen posters in question even consider the blatantly obvious, is why this thread will never end. And what's worse is them admitting this truth wouldn't diminish any of their other points. They can all be true, at once.

It's a very weird hill to die on. Because none of the practical real world evidence supports it.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that the American money printer is infinite and that no amount of public disapproval can override the influence of Israeli lobbyists on US politicians. For the Palestinians the situation is not nihilistic. The ones who die are viewed as martyrs (i.e. the opposite of a nihilistic death) and the movement as a whole is making progress toward achieving their long-term goal of getting that land back. They are forcing Israel into a situation where they do actually have to enact the final solution if they want to win this conflict through pure force/resources/technology.

And the scary thing is that, rather than admit that the current administration has, by labeling everyone terrorists and refusing to make any concessions in order to regain the moral high ground, irrevocably destroyed any chance of a peaceful Jewish homeland in the Middle East, normal, non-ultra-right Israelis are starting to believe that this is a good idea. It really is amazing to watch this in real time.

You are brand new to a very long thread. There has been repeated discussion of three things Israel could do:

1. Withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, leaving behind a real Palestinian state. The occupation is driving the Palestinian resistance, so this would bring peace.

2. End apartheid and give the vote to all Palestinians. This is the ideal solution, allowing for a binational democratic "Palestein."

3. A federation.

I agree with most points you've made, in full, and some in part. But one major point you've made, is wrong IMO- "The struggle for independence of the Jewish state has left the Palestinians as victims of a very challenging fate. I think Gaza should have remained part of Egypt when it was recently Egypt, but here we are. "

that is a logical fallacy. the palestinians are not victims, in all essence. they did not "fall" to the current situation, but are at list 50% responsible for it.
all the points from your side are to pin point every Israeli action and argue if it falls under the defenition of a war crimes, if not. that is a mute argument and as someone who sadly served in more than 1 war (including this one), it is splitting hairs.

as a left wing Israeli, you have to realise that even we support 100% the war, as there is a real threat to our lifes. there is a real plan to kill all jewish Israelis. that is not a slogan, not a strawman argument.

say what you want about our far right (that i concider nazi's) citizens, even they are not trying to implement such a "final solution"

yep, good list. also reparations.

and ofc release of all political prisoners and hostages from the Israeli torture camps.

I agree with 1 and 3 and we can get into the historical argument of why we didnt get there yet.

option 2 is a joke. you are calling for us to create a democratic state with 7 million palestinias, who govern themselfs in Gaza and the west bank and didnt create a democry there. in fact, there is not one arab state with a functioning democracy and no other state where palestinians live in a democracy. there is a reason for that - Islam. it is the one word that is abstant from every dialoge in this thred.

BTW, for options 1 and 3, why are you not calling on jordan and egypt to give land to create a Palestinian state. those are hugh states, and all the land that borders palestine in uninhabited and unused. if israel give 90% of the west bank, and jordan adds land from the east, palestine can actually be a big state.

but option 1 and 2 are non starters for the palestinians without addressing the 2 other major issues - jerusalem and the "refugees". what is your stance on those subjects?

the "political prisoner" who shot a baby in the head (shalhevet pas - way before 7/10) should be released?

wow

again, this is not sincere dialogueץ

i articulate my points very clearly. we obv do not agree, but im sure we can find more than common ground

Immediately stop bombing, withdraw all troops, and launch a Marshall Plan-style reparations campaign to pay for the unfathomable loss of life and property.

its pretty sincere. your views on "Islam" would not be allowed for any other group. certainly if someone made a similar broad attack on the ideals of "Judaism" or practicers of it they would be permanently banned.

I agree the Palestinians and their supporters in the Ummah believe it is a generational war of conquest they will eventually win. So you are right nihilism is the wrong word. And the West is enabling it by not acknowledging what is really going on and providing bad incentive structures.

However, I dont think the Ummah is working under very good assumptions about how this ends. Actually most of them aren't really thinking that far at all. They think if they just support Jihad and violence long enough, then Allah will deliver them victory, and they aren't too worried about filling in the blanks how we get there. However, I suspect no one except the most radical Islamists are going to think the juice was worth the squeeze if/when they eventually destroy Israel.

As to your last paragraph, I dont think it is productive to put everything on the current Israeli administration. I just think Westerners have been at peace so long they dont have a good theory of mind for how people will invariably react in an existential war of survival. Given the Palestinians behavior, and incentive structures provided by the rest of the world, there is really nothing surprising in how Israel is responding IMO.

The current Israeli administration is not a good faith partner trying to promote peace. But there have been previous administrations that were, and they were rewarded with nothing but cynicism and bad faith from the Palestinians and their supporters. And I think Westerners again have a poor theory of mind of how generations of cynicism and bad faith have hardened Israelis, to the point they aren't even trying anymore. As most people in their situation wouldn't.

I just looked that up, and wow indeed. All I can say is, I guess cocaine is a helluva drug?

that is not a plan. that is suacide. to thanks.

stating the fact that out of 57 islamic countries, there is 1 that is arguably a demcoracy, is an accurate and fair description.
you can counter argue that, or just act offended on belhalf of others.

there is a reason why woke ideas are the the opposite of education and intelect.

Moreover, there is a serious problem with radical Islam. there is a reason why almost all teror groups in the 21th century are based on interpretations of Islam.
we can ignore that fact too, or acknowledge it and understand where it comes from and how to solve it.

Why are you afraid to enter that discussion? i really think that you are doing your side a disservice.

as an Israeli christian arab once told me - not every muslim is a terrorist (far from it), but almost every terrorist is a muslim.

A "democracy" that can arbitrarily evict several million people from their homes kinda isn't.

all truth

And sadly also probably going to get moderated. Just be prepared.

We can agree their aims and timelines are delusion (at least I hope they are). But Hamas under Sinwar legitimately believes they will destroy Israel in the short to mid term. And much of Palestinians society has bought into this vision to some extent.

And this is motivating decision making. They are not good faith actors working towards peace, and pretending they are and Israel is the problem is not productive at all.

And there is nothing to suggest that if Israel just does what Trolly suggests, Hamas and there supporters will do anything but begin preparing for the next attempt to destroy Israel. No one Israel is fighting right now wants peace and reconciliation. They just want a breather to reorganize and start planning the next assault. And they dont even pretend otherwise. They just rely on the delusion of useful idiots like the ones in this thread.

Terrorist is a meaningless term. Nelson Mandela was a "terrorist". I consider the IDF to be terrorists.

I’ve deleted much of the above conversation that was related to personal commentary between posters, as well as the “Holocaust 2.0” discussion.

Everyone in this thread knows better at this point, so further instances of this are going to result in infractions and temp bans.

IMBLUEtheONE will return to us in 24 hours for posting blatant Islamophobia.

The above is totally unacceptable content.

Everyone needs to stop with the bullshit. Thank you.