Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
30595 Replies
At some point Western leftists are going to have to come to terms with the reality that destruction of Israel is completely integrated into the ideology of the people Israel is fighting, at the personal and organizational level.
It is, but they don't have the capacity to bring it about. It is simply a rallying-cry that they use to pull the suckers into their carnival tent.
No. You look at what they do. The attack Israel, radicalize their children, and promote a society that excludes anyone who is not their version of twisted Islam.
there is nothing legally or morally wrong with using armed resistance against an occupying apartheid force. the rest of your post is obv false and not really worth repeating.
In terms of national survival, Israel can't lose, since it is the most capable military power in the region. And the political classes that currently dominate Israel thrive on the conflict. It keeps them in business and provides cover for the ongoing expropriations in the West Bank, or 'Judea and Samaria' as they like to call it.
Seems strange that the whole world loses its mind over a land area equivalent to Wales (Israel) plus Shropshire and Herefordshire (the West Bank), but that's religion, ethnic nationalism and tribal totemism for you.
The Arab street craves democracy but they live under dictatorships. The Tunisia rebellion was democratic in nature. Iran had a democracy until the US smashed it and brought back the Shah. .
You continue to espouse a simplistic view of history. Mosaddegh immediately acted to take back oil assets built and paid for by other countries, without proper legal remediation. That was stupid and naive. He also came under scrutiny for ending the 1952 election before rural votes could be fully counted, because otherwise he may have lost. Mosaddegh also introduced a single-clause bill to parliament to grant him emergency "dictatorial decree" powers for six months. But, guess what, he decided 6 months was not enough and extended it for another year. So. Not a democracy (any more than Venezuela or Russia are one).
Yes, obviously the US and Britain were idiots, too, and screwed things up on their end with their simpleton mindset and brutish approach. But you have this mindless penchant to view the actions of Iran and Hamas through rose colored glasses and view the actions of the US and the West in the most harshest and paranoid of ways. You do so by ignoring all evidence that contradicts your point of view.
Iran and Hamas are not misunderstood good guys. They are self serving, hypocritical, and dangerous actors that stand in the way of Palestinians having anything hope of a better future.
I think he meant that the current ongoing plausible genocide is worse than the Nakba.
Worth sharing some quotes:
The plan proposed to Netanyahu and the Israeli parliament by a group of retired generals would escalate the pressure, giving Palestinians a week to leave the northern third of the Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, before declaring it a closed military zone.
Those who remain would be considered combatants — meaning military regulations would allow troops to kill them — and denied food, water, medicine and fuel, according to a copy of the plan given to The Associated Press by its chief architect, who says the plan is the only way to break Hamas in the north and pressure it to release the remaining hostages.
The plan calls for Israel to maintain control over the north for an indefinite period to attempt to create a new administration without Hamas, splitting the Gaza Strip in two.
“They will either have to surrender or to starve,” Eiland said. “It doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re going to kill every person,” he said. “It will not be necessary. People will not be able to live there (the north). The water will dry up.”
The copy of the plan shared with the AP says that if the strategy is successful in northern Gaza, it could then be replicated in other areas, including tent camps further to the south sheltering hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.
Hezbollah just hit an IDF base and Israeli media is reporting so far 67 injured and 3 dead.
some unreliable twitter accounts are saying the IDF chief of staff died. seems unlikely.
my guess is that we see some sick reprisals on Lebanese civilians like always.
In terms of national survival, Israel can't lose, since it is the most capable military power in the region. And the political classes that currently dominate Israel thrive on the conflict. It keeps them in business and provides cover for the ongoing expropriations in the West Bank, or 'Judea and Samaria' as they like to call it.
Seems strange that the whole world loses its mind over a land area equivalent to Wales (Israel) plus Shropshire and Herefordshire (the West Bank), but that's religion, e
Whats expropriations??. Are u trying to sweettalk us here?!
How about straight up stealing?
You continue to espouse a simplistic view of history. Mosaddegh immediately acted to take back oil assets built and paid for by other countries, without proper legal remediation.
The British had a ripoff arrangement agreed to by previous corrupt monarchs. Mosadegh tried at length to renegotiate the deal. He wanted the 50:50 split the Americans were doing with Saudi. The British refused any modification of their imperialistic deal. They refused to train Iranian technicians. Nationalization of British assets was fully justified.
Vic and Bill are the only ones right here
And 57 somewhat
The British had a ripoff arrangement agreed to by previous corrupt monarchs. Mosadegh tried at length to renegotiate the deal. He wanted the 50:50 split the Americans were doing with Saudi. The British refused any modification of their imperialistic deal. They refused to train Iranian technicians. Nationalization of British assets was fully justified.
The Brits, as has been the case for centuries, have acted as imperialistic nutjobs. Quite frankly, the Palestinians should be attacking them and not Israel...
It is true that Britain refused Iran's offer (and it wasn't 50:50, it was 75:25 Iran:GB), and litigation was commenced. That is what the court system is for. Not that the court system is flawless. But, it was still naive to think that they could just take the oil assets built and paid for by someone else and not expect repercussions. If a country feels it can renege on deals prior administrations made, regardless of how they view the fairness of those deals, then that country stops being internationally investable. Even if the Brits gave up their assets without a fight (never would happen), Iran would have suffered serious economic repercussions anyway. Agreed, the meddling the US and GB did in Iran was naive and short sighted and therefore ultimately destructive. But, so were the actions of Iran. Iran has since acted to meddle in the domestic affairs in a number of other countries ever since, usually to their detriment, exemplifying why Iran deserves no compassion.
But that is a side story. The main point I made was that Mosadegh created a dictatorship, despite promising democracy.
And sorry for misinterpreting what you previously wrote.
It wasn't a dictatorship. As for emergency decrees, all governments facing existential threats resort to them.
An MSP has been expelled from the SNP over comments about the Israel-Hamas conflict, which his party described as “utterly abhorrent”.
The Glasgow Shettleston MSP, John Mason, posted on social media in August: “If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have killed 10 times as many.”
He was reacting to former SNP MSP Sandra White, who had said: “We know what Israelis hope to achieve they are already committing genocide in Gaza,” adding that “innocent children are being massacred”.
Ian Blackford, the SNP’s former Westminster leader, was among those who criticised Mason’s comments, saying on X: “You are not fit for public office. You are an embarrassment and not fit to represent anyone.”
It wasn't a dictatorship. As for emergency decrees, all governments facing existential threats resort to them.
It was a dictatorship, definitionally and by legal decree. Many leaders have used all manner of excuse to justify one, often after being democratically elected. Doesn't change the fact that it was one. Under Mosaddegh elections were postponed indefinitely.
As an aside, my favorite quote regarding the issue is, "American Secretary of State Dean Acheson concluded that the British were "destructive, and determined on a rule-or-ruin policy in Iran"".
Also, In March 2000, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stated her regret that Mosaddegh was ousted: "The Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons. But the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development and it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America."
Iran has chosen to foment unrest in the world through many entities, including Hamas and Hezbollah. Yes, Iran has historic reason to be distrustful of "the West". But that isn't relevant anymore. It is time to move on from the past. There are plenty of close allies in the world today that previously were at war with each other. They got over that and those countries are the stronger for it. Iran could have peace, if it actually wanted it. But it doesn't. They have made that clear. They are waging a religious war against the world, and terrorizing their own citizens. Yeah, Iran got a bad deal. But Iran has set in motion dangerous policies that have no place in the civilized world. To some degree, they can't stop because of what Russia would do to them...
just burned a bunch of people alive in tents outside of Al Aqsa. we need a word for this unprecedented killing.
just burned a bunch of people alive in tents outside of Al Aqsa. we need a word for this unprecedented killing.
In reference to this, Israel is reporting they hit a major ammunition dump that created tremendous secondary fires that went out of control.
Unfortunately, this is the type of stuff that happens with the type of asymmetric warfare Hamas is waging. If you want to say Hamas asymmetric tactics are justified that is fine; but you also have to accept outcomes like this are an inevitable byproduct.
Iran sells A LOT of fossil fuels to countries like China and India. And very little of it goes back into Iran itself. We probably have trouble conceptualizing how much financial wealth (at least relative to how much total wealth Iran has) is poured into supporting the Axis of Resistance, and other IRI imperial projects.
It is actually very believable that Hezbollah kept so many hard assets, as they have to be very liquid to regularly pay the 100,000+ fighters they have, on top of the families of all the Shahid who fall in battle, on top of the numerous bribes that have to be payed to various factions in Lebanon and Syria, including probably to UN officials to allow them to operate with impunity in violation of UN resolutions.
In reference to this, Israel is reporting they hit a major ammunition dump that created tremendous secondary fires that went out of control.
Unfortunately, this is the type of stuff that happens with the type of asymmetric warfare Hamas is waging. If you want to say Hamas asymmetric tactics are justified that is fine; but you also have to accept outcomes like this are an inevitable byproduct.
nobody believes this bullshit. it doesnt even make sense.
Orwell missed a few thats for sure.
Nakba 2.0 is more accurate, but maybe that can o' worms doesn't need to be opened.
That is why it is so important that actors like Hamas, Hezbollah and ultimately IRI are removed. They will never make peace and are willing to sacrifice every life in Palestinian Territories, Lebanon and beyond to keep the fight going. So if they remain in power this just keeps repeating and gets worse every time.
I get it. You think if the rest of the world turns on Israel strong enough, they will be unable to continue and the Islamists will destroy Israel, achieve victory, and you will get the end you desire, and it will all be worth it.
However, I dont think this is how it is going to go, and even if the Islamists win the juice is not going to be worth the squeeze.
Hezbollah just hit an IDF base and Israeli media is reporting so far 67 injured and 3 dead.
some unreliable twitter accounts are saying the IDF chief of staff died. seems unlikely.
my guess is that we see some sick reprisals on Lebanese civilians like always.
Interestingly, the US and Israel just made a deal where the US has promised Israel additional advanced defensive technology and promising defensive support; in exchange for Israel dramatically reducing its offensive attacks, including a moratorium on attacking Hezbollah in Daniyeh.
If this is the outcome of decreasing their offensive to appease the US (giving Hezbollah space and time to maneuver resulting in more Israeli soldiers wounded and killed) it will be interesting how long this arrangement lasts.
Erm practising extreme defense. What an idea.
It needs a political commitment to a political solution so a non starter for the moment .
