Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
30593 Replies
I don't know what the Israeli leadership are thinking. They may just be applying their historic doctrine of disproportionate retaliation, making themselves as prickly as possible (though I recall that doesn't work for hedgehogs if the attacker is a badger, because badgers have such hard mouths); they may just be stoking it because a peace agreement would mean Israel didn't need ultra-hawks any more; and / or they may be trying to lure the US into action against Iran, the author of their current
The Israeli leadership is mainly thinking a) retain power and b) avoid the corruption court case, making this an extremely dangerous period for everyone.
Yep unfortunately just by considering netanyahu* and the usa (mostly the election factor) this has unfolded with depressingly easy predictability.
*his natural inclination combined with personal survival makes a dangerously toxic mix.
Trolly and Bill, your explanations were not particularly convincing.
Among non-state actors, there are obviously significant trends on who engages in acts of terror (85%+ is pretty significant). The question is why are those trends as they are. There are ample opportunities for more terror organizations among other religions/demographics. They choose to go another route. The question is simply why that is. Asking the question is not racist either.
Muslims are the major victim of Israel, so it's not surprising Muslims would respond. All the peaceful avenues were closed off.
There are ample opportunities for more terror organizations among other religions/demographics. They choose to go another route.
Yeah, they chose to become respectable. The GOP came astonishingly close to overthrowing the US government and assassinating the vice president, OBL would have creamed himself over an attack that successful. no one calls them a terrorist organization because they have the juice.
Asking loaded questions and then letting the audience fill in the blanks isn't an especially honest exercise. We have an expression "I'm just asking questions," you may have heard of it?
Israeli Defense Officials: Gov't Pushing Aside Hostage Deal, Eyeing Gaza Annexation
IDF commanders in Gaza say the recent decision to operate in the northern part of the Strip was taken without proper deliberations, and is apparently aimed at pressuring civilians in the area to relocate
Sounds like Israel should just give up on a bad idea and set up elsewhere or, because nowhere else is available, simply disperse throughout the world. Or would that count as ethnic cleansing now?
Israel has become a leading first world nation while their attackers are racing back to the Middle Ages.
Lots of countries throughout history have gotten rich doing genocide and slavery. I don't think it's a good metric from a moral perspective. But that's just me!
Lots of countries throughout history have gotten rich doing genocide and slavery. I don't think it's a good metric from a moral perspective. But that's just me!
Pretty sure even when you control for genocide and slavery, Israel is still beating all of it’s attackers by every objective measure. All done in less than a century to boot. Very impressive stuff.
Yeah, they chose to become respectable. The GOP came astonishingly close to overthrowing the US government and assassinating the vice president, OBL would have creamed himself over an attack that successful. no one calls them a terrorist organization because they have the juice.
Asking loaded questions and then letting the audience fill in the blanks isn't an especially honest exercise. We have an expression "I'm just asking questions," you may have heard of it?
The question isn't loaded, and there are no blanks to fill. We're trying to agree on the "why" here. Nobody has proposed an answer. But obviously there must be something fairly compelling. I don't have the first idea on what the blanks are, which is why I'm asking.
The question isn't loaded, and there are no blanks to fill. We're trying to agree on the "why" here. Nobody has proposed an answer. But obviously there must be something fairly compelling. I don't have the first idea on what the blanks are, which is why I'm asking.
the answer has been spelled out to you in excruciating detail countless times. it is bc of the oppressive and murderous and plausibly genocidal apartheid occupation from Israel.
on the flip side, anyone who insinuated that the occupation was as such due to Judaism would be permabanned quickly and they would probably deserve it.
I got over my Richard Dawkins phase in like 2000 and...well wait I never had a Dawkins phase bc I am not a bigot that hates Muslims and it took me about 30 seconds to realize what he was about. kinda surprised but not really to see his same tired arguments being regurgitated 20 years later.
the answer has been spelled out to you in excruciating detail countless times. it is bc of the oppressive and murderous and plausibly genocidal apartheid occupation from Israel.
Most of those groups have nothing to do with Israel. They are fighting thousands of miles away for causes having nothing to do with Israel or Palestine.
This answer just comes off as antisemitism on your part, blaming everything on the Jewish boogeymen.
We've had a very left leaning Liberal government here in Canada for nearly a decade, and a media very friendly to the cause of the Palestinians. We may have 2 major publications left that publish to the right, all the rest is to the left. So as countries go, this one has no real reason to be extremely biased here.
But even if that answer doesn't satisfy you, we can examine the United Nations Security Council Committee's list of terrorist organizations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de...
Hint: same outcome
If we asked largely Islamic countries for their lists, do we get another answer more in the line with the one you're hoping for? Well sure. But let's agree that that answer is probably worth skadoosh, to quote the great Tony Soprano.
I get that you guys want it one way. But obviously, it's the other. And we could have an honest conversation about why. And that seems forbidden.
Most of those groups have nothing to do with Israel. They are fighting thousands of miles away for causes having nothing to do with Israel or Palestine.
This answer just comes off as antisemitism on your part, blaming everything on the Jewish boogeymen.
you are so close to getting it. maybe those other groups arent the same as the Palestinian freedom fighters. maybe you shouldnt conflate them just bc of religion.
Even if we want to say the label of "terrorism" is subjective, I think it is fair to say that compared to Western and East Asian societies, most Islamic oriented societies do not accept the "modern" premise that the state should have a monopoly on violence. So the formation of extra-state militia/guerrilla groups that use violence to achieve political ends is more common and socially accepted.
I have thoughts why this could be the case, that others may or may not agree with. But I think the basic premise to be correct.
you are so close to getting it. maybe those other groups arent the same as the Palestinian freedom fighters. maybe you shouldnt conflate them just bc of religion.
The Palestinian "freedom fighters" are involved in a local conflict over land and resources. Like what has been going on forever. Their religion is not the reason they are fighting, but their religion is part of the reason IMO they have unreasonable, non rationale expectations and are willing to ally with outside bad actors (eg. IRI and proxies) that are doing nothing positive for them.
Before he decided to go full SJP, Trolly used to lecture the Jewish posters in this forum that the "right wing Zionists" were not their ally. Well, whether this is true or not, it is very true that actors like IRI, Qatar, Al Jazeera, Hezbollah, etc are not the ally of the Palestinian people; but religion is certainly playing a role why many dont see it this way.
We've had a very left leaning Liberal government here in Canada for nearly a decade, and a media very friendly to the cause of the Palestinians. We may have 2 major publications left that publish to the right, all the rest is to the left. So as countries go, this one has no real reason to be extremely biased here.
But even if that answer doesn't satisfy you, we can examine the United Nations Security Council Committee's list of terrorist organizations:
You’re viewing my response from an emotional perspective when I meant it logically.
It depends who makes the list.
Some posts came up in here yesterday that made me wonder what the actual real world data is. I reside in Canada, so this morning I got the urge to check what our country lists as recognized terrorist organizations.
https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-...
There are 6 neo Nazi groups. There's the FARC. There's one Tamil group. And there's one Russian Nationalist group. Call it 10ish of the 75. That means that over 85% of these terrorist organizatio
I get why some of the groups appear multiple times on this list because of the cell based structure of many of these organizations, but I think it’s kind of unfair to count them more than twice. Also there seems to be a bias against listing narco-terrorist organizations on this list and if they were on there the numbers would be a little less skewed towards Islamic terrorism. It’s hard to take government list of terrorist organizations seriously sometimes because they are susceptible to political maneuverings.
Still I do think that the Middle East seems to be a hotbed for Islamic terrorism so point still stands and we can quibble on the numbers.
Lying on the waste-ground with a blanket on his face
Indicating that he's left the human race
Helmet open where the world came in
Gotta keep your head if you wanna win
I get why some of the groups appear multiple times on this list because of the cell based structure of many of these organizations, but I think it’s kind of unfair to count them more than twice. Also there seems to be a bias against listing narco-terrorist organizations on this list and if they were on there the numbers would be a little less skewed towards Islamic terrorism. It’s hard to take government list of terrorist organizations seriously sometimes because they are susceptible to politica
Also worth noting how many orgs on the list were funded/and or created by "Western Government" intelligence agencies.
Many of these "terror organizations" were created with the intention to participate in proxy "resistance" to Soviet expansion in the region, no?
Many of these orgs created by "Western" governments have gone rogue. And isn't it rather ironic how Israel is now basically a rogue state conducting crimes against humanity in the region? History has shown the actions of these groups, one they go rogue, soon lead to greater regional conflict. (Whether or not that was by design from the beginning.)
