LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Similar to an expert jumpshooter like Kobe, I'm sure Miller would have a dynasty with Shaq too - Miller probably BEATS the Lakers in 2000 with equivalent help - it's amazing that Miller's weak roster went 6 games with Shaq/Kobe

Miller's deep runs with little help shows his "Curry effect" - great jumpshooting creates great chemistry and therefore winning with less - Miller probably beats the Lakers if Kobe doesn't save the Lakers in that famous OT game.

If we list every year (and we can if you want), it will be clear that Kobe had an assisted rate of 45-50% most years, versus 30-35% for Lebron.

The worst part is that Lebron is a forward and should have a 60-70% assisted rate, which makes Lebron's ball-dominance the most ABNORMAL.. This abnormal ball-dominance for his position and the resulting 2-point guard lineups makes Lebron's teams the most ball-dominant in the league, which creates the worst chemistry and underachieving teams - the underachievement is shown by 7 losses with favored rosters, such as losses with preseason favorites or homecourt... So he lost with favored rosters almost twice as much as he won... lololol... That's what abnormal ball-dominance does - it's a weak brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters.

It's the same - Duncan has lower PPG, efficiency, and PER

AD is top 5 all-time in PER and has been since he entered the league pretty much

But maybe I didn't properly explain the point, which was two-pronged - 1) Duncan is still superior to AD despite AD having the better stats, just like Kobe is superior to Lebron despite Lebron having the better stats, and 2) AD is still a "duncan-level" player and easily the best "sidekick" in the league, so it's horrible to only go 1 for 5 with him like Lebron is now - 1 for 5 with a "duncan-level" player is nowhere near the best we've ever seen, and neither was 1 for 4 with Love and Wade (Allen miracle notwithstanding).. We know that "bron-ball" has weak chemistry and mostly loses with every cast.

So again, Duncan/Kobe are superior to AD/Lebron despite the statistical deficit, and this is for obvious reasons... In addition to all the intangibles like leadership, toughness, etc, the tangible things that separate Duncan/Kobe from AD/Lebron are similar - both Duncan and Kobe have "go-to" moves that remove ambiguity and wasted motion when they catch the ball.. This fosters better fits with teammates and also allows them to fulfill a coach's demands better.. A coach might draw up a play to get a bucket on the left block, and Kobe/Duncan will do exactly that, while AD/Lebron might give them a variation of sorts because they don't have a go-to move that is unstoppable and can be executed quickly and easily every time.. It seems that the winningest players like Kareem, Duncan, Kobe, MJ and Curry had unstoppable, "go-to" moves that ultimately fostered better 5-man basketball, chemistry and coaching.. I think Kwame Brown alluded to exactly this (Bron's lack of a "go-to" move and it's implications).

Dalton Knecht will clearly average 20 ppg at some point, but he might not get the touches on this stacked team... MJ just needed 1 teammate like this and he was unbeatable.. Otoh, Lebron mostly loses with BEVIES of great players like Love, Ingram, Bosh, Kyrie, Westbrook, Wade, AD and so many more - MJ just needed one guy like this to be unbeatable, while Lebron mostly loses with everyone.. Will Knecht be the next guy that Lebron mostly loses with, or will Lebron get carried to 6 chips by AD, Knecht, baby-Knecht (Reaves), and the deepest, most tweaked roster in the league?

Why does everyone think Lebron makes teammates better when there's a long list of teammates that he reduced and had bad fits with, while there's also a statistical reality if him lowering teammates' assists, aka turning them into spot-up shooter?

Kyrie was all-star MVP before joining Lebron, and it's an obvious fact that Lebron didn't make Westbrook better, or Love, Bosh, Wade, Jamison, Hughes, Westbrook, Ingram, Kuzma, Clarkson, IT, and many more...

And don't tell me that he turns guys into champions because Wade was already a FMVP champion, while AD arrived on a lottery team and lifted them to champion, while Mo arrived on a trashy, 45-win team and provided the spacing to open up Lebron's game - Lebron needs an all-star spacer like Mo or Ray Allen to win 60 and MVP.. Of course Mo was a coveted free agent that was already good before joining Lebron - Mo, JR Smith and Zydrunas averaged 17-18 ppg before joining Lebron... And oh look - Dalton Knecht is already good too.

Ultimately, Lebron's high-scoring point guard skillset, aka "ball-domination" imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. Imagine a completely-fake goat that reduces teammates with horrible fits and spot-up roles, which also developed a single young player in 21 years.

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24' AD................ 24.7 and 9.9 rpg... 62.1 ts
24' D-Lo............. 18.0 and 6.3 apg... 58.8 ts
91' Pippen.......... 17.8 and 6.2 apg... 56.1 ts
24' Reaves......... 15.9 and 5.5 apg... 61.2 ts

"but Lebron isn't in his prime":

11' Wade............ 25.5 and 4.6 apg... 58.1 ts
11' Bosh............. 18.7 and 8.3 rpg.... 56.9 ts
91' Pippen.......... 17.8 and 6.2 apg... 56.1 ts

17' Kyrie............. 25.5 and 5.8 apg.... 58.0 ts
17' Love.............. 19.0 and 9.9 rpg.... 59.4 ts
91' Pippen'.......... 17.8 and 6.2 apg'... 56.1 ts

Lebron's inferior skillset requires twice as much help but still produces a small fraction of the winning frequency and the worst winning frequency of nearly any top 10 candidate.

Specifically, Lebron's skillset is high-scoring point guard play, aka "ball-domination", and this skillset imposes spot-up roles/reduces everyone's assists, so the TEAM has low assists, weak brand of ball and a lottery record on the championship level (22-33)..

Ultimately, the "ball-dominator" skillset produces weak chemistry and therefore underachieves favored talent, such as losing 7 times with the preseason favorite or homecourt.

Kobe Bryant had an assisted rate greater than or equal to 45% exactly 4 times. LeBron has had an assisted rate greater than or equal to 45% exactly 3 times. LeBron’s career assisted rate is precisely 2.64% lower than Kobe’s. Not 15% you ****ing dumbass.

This is all including the fact that Kobe developed under Phil Jackson and his triangle offense, which is DESIGNED to get Kobe assisted field goals. 2.64% higher compared to a guy you claim is purely a ball dominator, yet still managed to win 3 rings in 5 years without prime Shaq.

Any particular reason why you completely lie about the factual numbers all the time?

Kobe wasn't an "expert jumpshooter" in 2000.

So sad.

It's almost like it was Shaq's team.

Duncan has higher rebounds, assists, blocks, WS, BPM and VORP. He also finished in the Top 5 of the MVP 9 times (in 10 years).

AD missed 5 times as many games as Duncan.

They aren't close to the same player.

Dumb comments are dumb.

Dalton Knecht = Pippen now.

Amazing.

Kobe wasn't Reggie, but still a highly-skilled jumpshooter and highly-assisted player that fit with Shaq better than Penny, Wade or Lebron did

Again, Reggie might've had a better dynasty with Shaq than Kobe did - I concede that, but he can't carry a team like Kobe did with Pau - Kobe basically repeated with Rik Smits, I mean Pau, so that proves Kobe's vast superiority to Miller (even though Miller might do better with Shaq)

Cherry-picking non-prime years and cut-offs makes my case, not yours

Lebron's assisted rate was much lower than Kobe's in their primes and we can post the numbers to see, but the real issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance is abnormal for a forward, who have assisted rates between 60-70%... Having such an abnormally-low assisted rate for his position lowers the assist capacity of the team compared to other team's whose forwards have normal assisted rates... It's math and 2 + 2 = 4... Lebron's abnormally low assisted rate for a forward lowers the assist capacity of the team and makes it impossible for him to fit with many player types

He's clearly better than Pippen.

Pippen was just a dunker and transition player that took 4 years to learn a low production role in the triangle (15-20 ppg) and then was a 14 on 40% player outside the triangle.

This crap forced MJ to be scoring and usage champ to win titles (unprecedented burden to win titles) and have the highest production rates ever (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PPG)..

He also had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) at a level that no one is remotely close to matching.. Everyone else in history had teammates lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs , except MJ led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES - pippen's historically-bad efficiency and weak scoring threat forced MJ to face max defensive and attention carry this goat burden

Yes, dumbass. That’s why cherry picking is bad. It’s lying by taking only a subset of the data to make an obviously incorrect argument. The fact that you have to cherry pick to make your point (as you literally admit to here), makes you conclusively wrong. This is why it’s also called “suppressing evidence”.

AD led the more tangible numbers like scoring, efficiency and PER.

AD also led the Lakers to the 2020 title by dominating Jokic and leading the entire playoffs in scoring - that's better than Duncan ever played.. Duncan was never the offensive force that AD is.

Again, going 1 for 5 with a duncan-level player isn't the best basketball we've ever seen - it isn't GOAT or anywhere near... It also isn't goat to go 1 for 4 with Love or Wade (except Allen miracle).

Going 1 for 4 with numerous casts of all-star teammates is nowhere near the best basketball we've ever seen, so you simply fell for a media fraud.. If the media hadn't told you that Lebron was #2, no one would have him there because he won less than Duncan or Kobe, while having lesser teams and "era impact" than Curry.. Media fraud was required to overcome the inferiority and losing nature of Lebron's skillset (high-scoring ball-dominator, aka losing skillset - mostly loses with every cast and cannot produce great teams - media fraud was required to overcome this).

Lebron's assisted rate was much lower than Kobe's and we can post all the numbers to see, but the real issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance is abnormal for a forward, who have assisted rates between 60-70%...

Having such an abnormally-low assisted rate for his position lowers the assist capacity of the team compared to other team's whose forwards have normal assisted rates... It's math and 2 + 2 = 4... Lebron's abnormally low assisted rate for a forward lowers the assist capacity of the team and makes it impossible for him to fit with many player types

Again, his inherently suboptimal skillset is why he cannot produce great teams and produces perennial losers with every cast instead

Yes, dumbass. That’s why cherry picking is bad. It’s lying by taking only a subset of the data to make an obviously incorrect argument. The fact that you have to cherry pick to make your point (as you literally admit to here), makes you conclusively wrong. This is why it’s also called “suppressing evidence”.

For the totality of their careers:

* Lebron has much lower assisted rate than Kobe

* Lebron has abnormally-low assisted rate for his position, thus lowering the assist capacity of the team compared to other teams.

* Lebron has much lower jumpshooting volume and efficiency than Kobe

* Lebron's lowers teammates' assists (imposes spot-up roles)

^^^ Kobe is the opposite of these things, so his skillset allows a great ball movement, chemistry and coaching, while Lebron imposes spot-up roles, weak chemistry and weaker teams.

If any of what you wrote were true, then Kobe, being an off-guard in Phil Jackson’s triangle offense, would have an assisted rate much, much greater than 2.64% higher than LeBron James, who played point forward or point guard for the vast majority of his career.

Since the difference is only 2.64%, we can conclude the entire point you’ve been arguing for the past several hundred posts is completely wrong.

If you disagree with this, and would like to continue arguing, can you start by posting the season-by-season assisted field goal rate of LeBron and Kobe, and then showing how you calculate the “average”?

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Assisted Rates during prime years

2000 Kobe.......... 44.8
2001 Kobe.......... 41.8
2002 Kobe.......... 37.2
2003 Kobe.......... 40.0
2004 Kobe.......... 46.9
2005 Kobe.......... 34.2
2006 Kobe.......... 43.8
2007 Kobe.......... 40.0
2008 Kobe.......... 40.0
2009 Kobe.......... 37.3
2010 Kobe.......... 40.5

2006 Lebron...... 32.0
2007 Lebron...... 34.3
2008 Lebron...... 34.3
2009 Lebron...... 33.6
2010 Lebron...... 36.5
2011 Lebron...... 32.3
2012 Lebron...... 37.4
2013 Lebron...... 40.1
2014 Lebron...... 41.6
2015 Lebron...... 34.5
2016 Lebron...... 40.4
2017 Lebron...... 37.8
2018 Lebron...... 31.0
2019 Lebron...... 34.1
2020 Lebron...... 28.9

Lebron was mostly in the 30's and never above 41.6%, while Kobe had 8 of 11 seasons above 40% and reached 47%..

Furthermore, forwards normally have assisted rates that are 60-70%, so Lebron's ball-dominance is far more abnormal than Kobe's and the abnormally ball-dominant team can't viably compete against ball movement teams.. Lebron gets destroyed by the Warriors, Nuggets or Spurs, while Kobe dominated the Spurs as 1st option in 01', 02' and 08'.

^^^ I know this is your true objective and I was going to post them anyway (see linked numbers above)... Kobe clearly has far lower assisted rates during their primes of 00-10' vs 06-20'.

But you didn't address the other demonstrations of ball-domination that we already know to be statistical fact, such as Lebron lowering his teammates' assists (imposing spot-up roles) or having low jumpshooting volume & efficiency compared to Kobe.

These 2 things (lowering teammate assists & low jumpshooting volume) reduce the capacity for ball movement and team assists, so his team LOSES to these things, such as multiple historic losses to the "ball movement" Nuggets, Spurs, and Warriors, or further historic losses to 1-star teams like the Mavs and Magic (historic favorite each time).
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[QUOTE=FraudVictim]Lebron does more things well than Curry. he quarterbacks both the offense and the defense, made a ton of momentum turning hustle plays, etc.[/QUOTE]

APG

Westbrook.......... 8.1
Rondo................. 7.9
D-Lo.................... 5.9
Kyrie'................... 5.7
Draymond........... 5.6
Wade.................. 5.4
MJ........................ 5.3
Pippen................. 5.2
Eric Snow............ 5.0
Mo Williams....... 4.9
Kobe................... 4.7
Chalmers.............3.7
D Fish'.................. 3.0

Draymond, Pippen, and Derek Fisher rank low among the playmaking help that Lebron had, so the entire narrative that Lebron does everything is complete BS.

In addition to Lebron's superior playmaking help, Love averaged 11.2 rebounds in 2017, so Lebron had TONS of rebounding help in his career - he was 3rd through 5th on his own team in rebounds from 2004-2010 (except 09') and then he got Bosh, Love, Haslem, Tristan, Mosgov, AD and tons of other great rebounders - far more than Curry ever had, or MJ and Kobe.

In addition to more scoring, rebounding and passing help, Lebron also had more rim protection with Zydrunas getting 2.5 blocks or AD, McGee, Mosgov, Shaq, Ben Wallace and others providing FAR more rim protection than MJ ever had.

So again, the entire notion that "lebron does everything" is false because he needs the most of everything - the most scoring, playmaking, rebounding help and rim protection compared to MJ, Curry or Kobe (with Pau).... Lebron also wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he wasn't required to be a good defender for half his chips - AD led the defense, or even Tristan in Cleveland.

The high PNR skillset is the neediest skillset in history - people simply misperceive dribbling the ball as "quarterbacking" when that's a different sport altogether.. In basketball, carrying the ball around is the neediest way to play - it serves the individual statistically at the expense of the team's potential brand of ball and output.
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Jordan won his 6th chip at 35 years old, while Lebron won at 35 but has been trash ever since - he had 2 first round exits, a lottery and 2 sweeps by Joker since his final prime season in 2020.

Ultimately, why would I include Lebron's super-young or super-old years?... Lebron entered the league as a shooting guard in 2004 and proceeded to wet the bed with only 20 ppg on bad efficiency and lower PER than 40-year old MJ from the prior year.... Again, why would I include that season?... Similarly, 2005 was another lottery season and not Lebron's prime...

And of course in recent years, Lebron has played off-ball more because he's a fossil now, and the Lakers' pathetic record confirms that HE'S BAD AT IT - he can't promote great ball movement or chemistry even when he's playing off-ball!!!!

It's completely absurd for Kobe to have a higher assisted rate AT ALL over a frontcourt player, let alone significant advantages like Kobe has over Lebron.. Kobe's peak was 47% and Lebron's low is 29%, so that's nearly 20% gap - the average gap is around 5 to 7% most years but any advantage is absurd to begin with - forwards have assisted rates of 50-90% depending on the forward, so Lebron's standard of 32-36% is crazy abnormal ball-dominance that causes weak chemistry and higher talent needs.

Depending on the forward, they range from 50 to 90%... AD's is 73.9%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203076/...

People forget that Antawn Jamison outplayed Lebron heads-up in the 2007 1st Round, and Jamison's assisted rate that year was 90%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1712/sc...

Paul George at 57%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/202331/...

Durant is at 62%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/201142/...

Lebron's skillset is point guard due to 35% assisted rate - he doesn't play like a forward with a 60 or 90% assisted rate like Jamison, AD, Durant, PG13 or Karl Malone..

Lebron scored 40k points in a point guard role - he couldn't score 36k as the off-ball roll man like Karl Malone for example - this isn't Lebron's wheelhouse to score 36k that way..

Maybe he could score 15k that way or something and average 20 ppg, but no one would say he's dominant that way - he needs to play point guard to be dominant - he can't average 30-40 off-ball the way MJ or Kobe could, otherwise he would've done it and won like they did..

If the triangle was truly the savior, then everyone would've used it to win 6 chips like MJ did - but only MJ and Kobe had the skill to dominate as a perimeter player in that offense - they literally invented the footwork required to dominate off-ball in a ball movement system as a perimeter player.

Nonsense - we have 21 years of Lebron playing for every coach imaginable and with every lineup - he had star point guards and star shooting guards, or star bigs and every type of coach - he's always come back to being a ball-dominator and playing that style ... It's a fact that he got Blatt fired when Blatt tried to install a ball movement offense like the triangle..

You're just in denial - it's already been shown that coaches with ball-movement philosophies aren't hired to coach ball-dominators and they're quickly shown the door if they somehow are (like Blatt..... and Bron also tried to get Spolestra fired)... Maybe you aren't aware of this common knowledge history, so you're confused when I bring it up, but Lebron got Blatt fired for trying to run a triangle-like offense and he tried to get Spo fired for the same reason.. This is well-documented - I can repost the articles by Windhorst and others if you need but they were posted on the last page or 2.

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A few top reasons why MJ is GOAT

* Since the 3-point line was instituted, MJ won twice as many rings as the clear-cut best player as anyone else (it can easily be argued that Duncan and Lebron only won 3 chips as the clear-cut best player)

* Jordan can crap on Russell's ring count by saying that he won the most rings in the tougher era of the 80's and 90's.. i.e. who who cares about prior eras when he won the most in the tougher era... Lebron can't make this argument because he didn't win the most of players in the 00's or 10's - Curry won just as much and Duncan/Curry won more.

* MJ had the only dynasty that wasn't a super-team with multiple all-star teammates (winning the most with the least)

* MJ is the only player that had to build a lottery team into champion (organic) and wasn't gifted a goat dynasty like Bird, or gifted all-star teammates like Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Kareem, Magic and everyone else.. MJ had to build everything into championship caliber, such as an 8 ppg rookie or a 1st-time nobody coach.

* MJ won with the unprecedented burden (usage and scoring champ)

* MJ leads the vast majority of stats/production rate categories, such as PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, PPG, plus-minus, raptor, clutch-time production, game-winner efficiency (zero choke factor, aka regular efficiency minus clutch efficiency = 0)

* In the playoffs, MJ averaged 5 more ppg than everyone in history with better efficiency per possession than Kobe, Lebron, and anyone that matters.. (edit: 4 ppg over Iverson and Luka hasn't fulfilled minimum game requirement)

* Among goat athletes like Zion, Giannis, Lebron, Dr. J, Wilt, Dominique, Shaq, etc - Mj is the only goat-level shooter on either 2's or 3's

Fallguy,
When I say “average”, do you know what that means?

What is the average of these 3 numbers: 3, 5, 9?

Can you show how you calculated that?