LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Matt R.
Just FYI, fallguy has about 50+ banned accounts on twoplustwo over last 11 years, and about 100 000 posts of the same kind of posting at different forums. He's just trolling to pass time.
Oh I believe you. I do actually think he believes what he writes though, and I am honestly fascinated by his thought process. Like it’s so obviously nonsense but he refuses to budge even an inch on the most minute things.
Fallguy,
What do you think of the following:
The year is 2012. LeBron James passes to Dwyane Wade for an assisted two point field goal. This team is good enough to go on and win the NBA championship. This is a “bad” assisted field goal according to you because it’s imposing a spot up role on a teammate, and LeBron is bad, yes?
Next, the year is 2017. Draymond Green passes to Stephen Curry for an assisted two point field goal. This team also goes on to win an NBA championship. You would say this is a “good” assisted field goal because it’s raising Steph’s assisted field goal rate, yes? Which you say is crucial to building a winning dynasty. Is Draymond’s assist better than LeBron’s? In what way? Does this make Draymond Green a better playmaker than LeBron because he passed to Steph Curry?
You’re saying 1) elite, unbeatable, dynasty teams have high assisted field goal percentages going to another player, like Steph Curry. So it’s good to make assists. But you’re also saying 2) it’s really bad when LeBron James makes assists to a player like say, Dwyane Wade, increasing his assisted field goal percentage because it’s imposing a spot up role. It’s good when Draymond and Steph do it, but bad when LeBron and Wade do it.
Is everything above a correct representation of your basketball beliefs?
Ray Allen scored 0 points in game 7 of 2013 finals, what Ray Allen miracle are you talking about?
Game 6 3 pointer? Was that particular painful of a shot to keep bringing it up 11 years later?
Perhaps the most tangible evidence that Lebron is just a lucky fraud is that 2 of his titles could be reversed on a single bounce of a ball.. He could easily have only 2 rings, while MJ's 6 are legit because he never needed a 7th game or final possession to win any series.
Oh I believe you. I do actually think he believes what he writes though, and I am honestly fascinated by his thought process. Like it’s so obviously nonsense but he refuses to budge even an inch on the most minute things.
This is always the line that you guys take when you can't refute the facts about Lebron's inferior skillset and style of play.... "b-b-but fallguy is just trolling us - he doesn't really mean this stuff.. He doesn't really mean that Lebron lowers everyone's assists and has a long list of bad fits"
Why the f*ck would I not mean it when this stuff is fact and I've linked all the stats - Lebron is a ball-dominator that imposes spot-up roles, weak chemistry and weak teams compared to other greats - it's statistical fact and historical record.. I will continue to post the stats that prove this..
Yet your response to the historical record and proven fact is "he's not serious ".... smh, you guys are children and making fools of yourselves.. You've never lost a debate so badly I can assure you..
I think you guys might be ignoring the fact that fallguy's nonsense has nothing to do with MJ, Kobe, Curry or Lebron, but is entirely about dealing with his own personal trauma from his playing career. He's just projecting himself or whatever attributes he either had or imagines he could have developed onto players like Kobe and MJ. I mean we're talking about a guy that peaked as a low-IQ role player on a pretty good high school team that scored like a total of 4 points in his collegiate caree
You guys are just jealous that you aren't 6'7" like me and good enough to be the 55th pick and drop 17 in an NBA preseason game (since apparently it's a thing now for bit-players at D1 schools to do that).
Ultimately, I hate Lebron because he ruined the game in so many ways, which is what all his teammates said, such as Chalmers, Shumpert and Wade .. With the game ruined in many ways, real fans like myself have been replaced by beta nerds that never went within 10 feet of a spherical object.. They're attracted to the game because Silver dumbed it down... "3-and-D"... "dunker spot"... We now have a hands-off, spaced-out, beginner format with open paint that cannot produce the world's best players anymore - the international formats are tougher (more old school) and therefore produce the best players.
It all stems from Lebron's "decision" to team up with opponents, which was a statement that said"winning and competing doesn't matter anymore"... Since then, the league moved in a WWE direction by virtue of team-up/collusion atmosphere, easy rules to increase scoring, cumbaya between players (no rivalries), and media shills with an agenda to tear down previous eras..
Lebron is responsible for all of this - he ruined American basketball and downgraded American hoops caliber, so I hate him and haven't been able to watch the coverage for a long time now.. I'm diligently waiting for him to retire so I can watch the cable sports shows again.. In the meantime, I'll keep exposing how much of a fraud he is - he never learned how to win and has a dumb ball-dominator skillset that instills low chemistry and low team ceiling with every cast.
Btw, according to Lebron fans, it's MJ's fault and a black mark that he lost to the Bad Boys and Celtics, whereas the only black mark for Lebron is 2011.
This is particularly egregious because MJ never had a bad series, while Lebron has many debacles, such as 35% and 6 TO's in the 08' ECSF or 07' Finals, and only averaging 26/6/6 in a loss in 06'... Then he melted down in 10' and only averaged 26 that loss too..
Otoh, MJ never played this bad in any loss and dominated virtually every series, yet his losses are black marks and Lebron only has 1 black mark of 2011..
So it's a black mark when MJ averages 30/6/6 on 48% against the Bad Boys, but it's completely fine when Lebron averages 26 on 35% and 6 TO's to lose in 7 - this bed-wetting is completely fine, while MJ's domination is a black mark.. This is the kind of backwards logic people must believe for a fraud to succeed.
Fallguy,
You are correct that I am indeed jealous if you’re actually 6’7”. Because if I was that tall I would have played D1. As it stands though I just played for fun after high school. Thems the breaks I guess.
Regardless, as someone who is better than us at 6’7” and an elite basketball mind who could have gone pro, I am interested in your take on the following; is everything written an accurate representation of your genius basketball thoughts? If not, what would you change?:
Fallguy,
What do you think of the following:
The year is 2012. LeBron James passes to Dwyane Wade for an assisted two point field goal. This team is good enough to go on and win the NBA championship. This is a “bad” assisted field goal according to you because it’s imposing a spot up role on a teammate, and LeBron is bad, yes?
Next, the year is 2017. Draymond Green passes to Stephen Curry for an assisted two point field goal. This team also goes on to win an NBA championship. You would say this is
.
Assisted Rates
Draymond........ 70-80%
Curry................. 40-50% (high for a PG)
Fallguy,
What do you think of the following:
The year is 2012. LeBron James passes to Dwyane Wade for an assisted two point field goal. This team is good enough to go on and win the NBA championship. This is a “bad” assisted field goal according to you because it’s imposing a spot up role on a teammate, and LeBron is bad, yes?
Next, the year is 2017. Draymond Green passes to Stephen Curry for an assisted two point field goal. This team also goes on to win an NBA championship. You
Steph Curry's assisted rate (skillset) was 44% during his MVP season and similar levels for his career.... Meanwhile, Love's assisted rate/skillset was 65% during his peak season in 2014 and during his career... So the issue is that these rates increase drastically when they join Lebron - Love goes from a superstar at 65%, to a full-fledged spot-up role player at 80% alongside Lebron.
Otoh, teammates don't experience higher assisted rates and spot-up roles alongside non-ball-dominators like Curry or Draymond because these guys don't have the ball enough to make teammates stand around and spot-up - they have high assisted rates for their position and are great assist targets, so teammates can get assists instead of having to spot-up.
Otoh, teammates have less opportunity to get an assist when a normally great assist target like the forward position is actually a poor/infrequent assist target like Lebron - so essentially, Lebron's abnormally-low assisted rate takes his teammates' assist capacity away, and thereby the team's capacity for high-assists..
He simply lacks hoops instinct and IQ to play off teammates, and this weak off-ball ability is exacerbated by a lack of expert jumpshooting skill, volume and efficiency.. How could he play with an in-out big like Shaq with half the jumpshooting volume and weak jumpshooting efficiency compared to Kobe or MJ?.. And Shaq isn't a PNR big that Lebron needs, so you guys are crazy if you think Lebron goes more than his typical 1 for 4 with Shaq.. He went 1 for 4 with everyone else like Love, AD or Wade (except the Allen miracle).. Look how many bad losses he has in his prime with multiple all-star teammates, preseason favorites, homecourt, sweeps or record losses - it's a lot of bad losses in his prime with stacked squads, so let's not act like Lebron is automatic - it's the opposite - he mostly loses in catastrophic fashion - that's the norm.
Earlier you said an assisted rate of 50 to 90% for a forward is good. Now you’re saying when a teammate of LeBron is in that range it’s bad.
Furthermore, for some reason you changed the player in my hypothetical from Wade to Love. I was curious what your motivation for this was, so I looked up Wade’s numbers. And I saw that with LeBron, Wade’s assisted fg rate went from 20 to 30% pre-LeBron to ~40% with LeBron. ~44% in their last two seasons playing together.
This is exactly the number for Steph Curry in his MVP season that you listed above. The number you say is perfect.
What was your motivation for leaving out this crucial piece of information and changing the player from Wade to Kevin Love? I’ll be honest fallguy, it seems like you’re just saying that any assist from LeBron is bad and any field goal from LeBron is bad, and his rings don’t count because someone made a jump shot, therefore LeBron is bad.
Earlier you said an assisted rate of 50 to 90% for a forward is good. Now you’re saying when a teammate of LeBron is in that range it’s bad.
Furthermore, for some reason you changed the player in my hypothetical from Wade to Love. I was curious what your motivation for this was, so I looked up Wade’s numbers. And I saw that with LeBron, Wade’s assisted fg rate went from 20 to 30% pre-LeBron to ~40% with LeBron. ~44% in their last two seasons playing together.
This is exactly the number for Steph
Spoiler
My favourite is that it's super important about ball movement, but in the next breathe it's "MJ's team mates are terrible and he carried them all the Championships".
Actually, I thought he was 20 or 21 years old... Now I see that he's almost 24 already, so I rescind that statement - he's a lot closer to being as good as he will get than I thought - I guess his older age is why he seemed more filled out in the upper body than I expected - he probably was thinner when he was 20 or 21.
But interestingly, he's still much better at 23 or 24 years old than Pippen, who was a rookie at those ages..
In the 89' ECF, Pippen averaged 9.7 on 40% and didn't play in the c
Bit late now, I'd put all my money on him being a first ballot hall of famer like Pippen.
some misperceptions itt.. Jordan's buckets were often assisted, so teammates were involved and assisting him even when he's going off for 60 - the ball is still moving...
many people don't realize that usage is just shot attempts + FT's + turnovers.... It isn't a reflection of ball-domination.... Klay Thompson can lead the NBA in usage by just taking 30 spot-ups per game
.
Here's Dominique calling Pippen a role player:
Dominique dominated Pippen in the 93' 1st Round with 30 on 44%, compared to 15 on 33% for Pippen.
Again, no amount of defense would stop AD from getting destroyed and entirely downgraded if he scored at this level - these types of scorers have never been considered more than role-playing defenders, hence Dominique's comments.
Btw, I love Dominique giving the caveat before destroying Pippen... "and I have a lot of respect for Pippen" as he scratches above his lip, and then "he's a role player"
.
Earlier you said an assisted rate of 50 to 90% for a forward is good. Now you’re saying when a teammate of LeBron is in that range it’s bad.
There's nothing wrong with being a role player like Korver or Tristan Thompson with a 75-90% assisted rate, but the problem is that Lebron turns stars that are in the 50-60% range into role players like Korver or Thompson that are in the 75-90% range - he increases his teammates' assisted rate to role player levels.. Obviously, when good producers like Bosh, Love and Jamison are turned into role players like Tristan Thompson, it destroys the team's production capacity and causes perennial underachievement..
It's interesting because Kyrie is the only guy whose assisted rate barely increased at all alongside Lebron, which demonstrates how Kyrie commanded the ball in spite of Lebron's presence... Accordingly, it's crazy to think about how great the Cavs would've been with an off-ball player like MJ to compliment Kyrie's on-ball dominance, instead of a weaker "your-turn-my-turn" brand with Lebron that barely won 50 games each year...
How the heck did Lebron barely win 50 games each year with prime Kyrie/Love????... We know the answer - "cancer-ball", aka "bron-ball", aka "abnormally-low assisted rate for his position (ball-domination), which forces stars to stand around and increase their assisted rate towards role player level"... Otoh, jumpshooters don't have abnormally-low assisted rates for their position (ball-domination), so they don't force teammates to stand around in spot-up roles with role player assisted rates.
Furthermore, for some reason you changed the player in my hypothetical from Wade to Love. I was curious what your motivation for this was, so I looked up Wade’s numbers. And I saw that with LeBron, Wade’s assisted fg rate went from 20 to 30% pre-LeBron to ~40% with LeBron. ~44% in their last two seasons playing together.
This is exactly the number for Steph Curry in his MVP season that you listed above. The number you say is perfect.
What was your motivation for leaving out this crucial piece of
Before they teamed up, Wade and Lebron were the most ball-dominant at their position with assisted rates in the 30's, and they were still the most ball-dominant at their position after they teamed up with assisted rates that barely inched into the 40's... They were dual ball-dominators with the lowest assisted rates at their position, so they increased everyone's assisted rate, which included increasing Bosh's to role player status... It was a stubborn and ugly fit that got historically-embarrassed twice and nearly 3 times in the Finals.
This is why assisted rates in the 30's (point guard-level) are entirely suboptimal because the only player-type they don't reduce are super-highly-assisted role players like Korver or Tristan, while other teammates like Bosh and Love move towards role player status.. So ideally, if we're hand-picking our perfect roster, it's better if no one on the team has an abnormally-low-assisted skillset for their position (ball-dominator) that increases everyone's assisted rate.. Neither Wade or Lebron would make my team.
It's better to have 5 guys with normal assisted rates for their position and playing off each other with no real change in anyone's assisted rate - this kind of equitable distribution of the assists and assisted rates is what the dynasties have.. Their biggest producers and leaders of the team were normally-assisted players for their position that didn't increase everyone's assisted rate and impose spot-up roles - Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Kareem, Russell - all the dynasties - these guys didn't impose spot-up roles by being a ball-dominator (low assisted rate for their position that increases everyone's assisted rate, including stars to role player status).
Fallguy,
I checked your claims with real numbers and nothing you wrote seems to be accurate. For example Kevin Love’s assisted field goal rate was the same after LeBron left Cleveland as when LeBron was there. And most of LeBron’s teams had well balanced assist rates between players just like the dynasty teams you listed. And Antawn Jamison had seasons with just as high of assisted fg% as he did with LeBron.
Could you elaborate on the discrepancy between your narrative and the actual data?
You know maybe you guys are right and fallguy is just trolling. I honestly thought he believed the stuff he was writing because it’s an awful lot of time and effort just to troll. But when the numbers don’t match anything he’s saying when I look them up it does make you wonder.
.
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Lebron lowered his teammates' APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):
.............................................................APG................... ASSISTED RATE
Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):......... 6.6.............................29.2%
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):'......... 4.7.............................40.3%
Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):......... 5.8.............................31.9%
Irving with... Lebron.. (15-17'):......... 5.3.............................32.7%
Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):........... 2.2.............................55.8%
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):'........... 1.6.............................71.6%
Love before Lebron (09'-14'):............ 2.5.............................62.7%
Love with...Lebron (15'-18'):............. 2.1.............................78.3%
Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):...... 5.7.............................39.2%
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):....... 4.6.............................47.6%
FYI...
Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':............ 6.5
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':............ 5.4
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':............ 5.8
Basketball-reference.com lists the 2-point and 3-point assisted rates separately, so the assisted rates above are the weighted averages of the 2-point and 3-point assisted rates listed in the links - the numbers are 100% accurate and these weighted averages match the overall numbers listed on nba.com... But nba.com only lists 1 year at a time and doesn't list periods of years like bballref does, hence the bballref links with the weighted averages.
Fallguy,
I checked your claims with real numbers and nothing you wrote seems to be accurate. For example Kevin Love’s assisted field goal rate was the same after LeBron left Cleveland as when LeBron was there. And most of LeBron’s teams had well balanced assist rates between players just like the dynasty teams you listed. And Antawn Jamison had seasons with just as high of assisted fg% as he did with LeBron.
Could you elaborate on the discrepancy between your narrative and the actual d
You're playing an avoidance game at this point.
Love's assisted rate in his prime before joining Lebron was around 60% and it increased to 80% alongside Lebron... Then Love was hurt in 2019 and past his prime after that - he was a 7th option or something (legit role player)... Bosh followed the same path with 55% assisted rate before Lebron, and 70-75% alongside Lebron - then Bosh was hurt after that... At this point, we know how to look up the stats and they're clear as day - literally everyone saw higher assisted rates alongside Lebron, and usually significant increases that turned them into lower players entirely.
Btw, Antawn Jamison only played the last 25 regular season games with the Cavs in 2010, but nba.com's monthly stats show that his assisted rate increased to 81% in the last 2 months for the last 20 games, and 63-78% in the months before joining Lebron - see the monthly breakdown of Jamison's 2010 assisted rate here (4th section down)... But again, virtually everyone's assisted rate increased alongside Lebron, as the previous post shows.
Ultimately, high-scoring point guards (or high-scoring point forwards) score a high volume of buckets on their own without being assisted by teammates, so they have abnormally-low assisted rates for their position, which increases everyone else's assisted rates (imposes spot-up roles) - if a player has abnormally low assisted rates, then this increases everyone else's.. The higher assisted rates are fine for role players like Korver or Tristan, but it reduces stars like Love and Bosh to role player status.. Otoh, Jumpshooters or bigs have normal assisted rates for their position, so they aren't scoring on their own all the time, thereby forcing teammates into spot-up roles and higher assisted rates.
You know maybe you guys are right and fallguy is just trolling. I honestly thought he believed the stuff he was writing because it’s an awful lot of time and effort just to troll. But when the numbers don’t match anything he’s saying when I look them up it does make you wonder.
Lebron has made the NBA so soft that it's only a matter of time before NBA players start doing this after dunks:
Again, I'm waiting for him to retire so I can start watching again.
Fallguy,
Looks like you still aren’t doing the analysis correctly unfortunately. The players assisted fg% are going up under LeBron which you already argued vehemently was good because it’s making them less ball dominant. Zippy ball movement remember?
I’m 50/50 on whether you’re trolling or not now; sometimes it looks like you are honestly trying and are just doing things incorrectly. I think if you analyzed things properly your conclusions would change.
Fallguy,
Looks like you still aren’t doing the analysis correctly unfortunately. The players assisted fg% are going up under LeBron which you already argued vehemently was good because it’s making them less ball dominant. Zippy ball movement remember?
I’m 50/50 on whether you’re trolling or not now; sometimes it looks like you are honestly trying and are just doing things incorrectly. I think if you analyzed things properly your conclusions would change.
No it isn't good for players to become spot-up shooters via higher assisted rates - that's bad obviously and that's why his teams lose to ball movement teams that allow players to maintain their assists, assisted rate, and maximum production rates.
You're just playing dumb and it's obvious.. I don't see anyone else jumping in on your fight to refute the common knowledge about Lebron imposing spot-up roles, weaker chemistry and weaker teams.
Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles reduced many teammates and never developed a single young player.. The media just lies about him.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter (increasing their assisted rate), he reduces everyone's assists and therefore has low assist teams - he hogs the assists and everyone else's assists are reduced.
One thing that you aren’t doing properly and will want to reconsider is that when players like Kyrie, Love, and Bosh changed teams and played with LeBron they went from the first option to the second or even third option. And LeBron was generally running point. So of course their assists will decrease under this different offensive scheme and role.
The opposite would be true for Pippen because Pippen played point forward and Jordan was SG so having Jordan to pass to would increase his assists.
Sometimes things are as simple as players play different positions or have different roles when they change teams. Something to think about as your basketball analysis skills grow fallguy.
No it isn't good for players to become spot-up shooters via higher assisted rates - that's bad obviously and that's why his teams lose to ball movement teams that allow players to maintain their assists, assisted rate, and maximum production rates.
You're just playing dumb and it's obvious.. I don't see anyone else jumping in on your fight - they understand the obvious and it's common knowledge
But you cited Steph Curry’s assisted field goal rate and said it was good. Perfect even as it was his MVP season. You can’t also claim this same rate under a LeBron led offense is bad.
I’m not playing dumb I’m just pointing out the obvious contradiction. No one else is jumping in because they all think you’re crazy and aren’t replying anymore. They’ve all been very open, spoken up, and said they disagree with you over the last 10,000+ posts.
I actually think you may have issues dealing with reality fallguy. Everyone that has replied legitimately says they believe you’re trolling because no one could possibly believe what you write. I, however, am giving you the benefit of the doubt and engaging with you.
But now you’re even claiming everyone agrees with you…? How does that work? Have you really been banned over dozens of accounts?
Lebron has made the NBA so soft that it's only a matter of time before NBA players start doing this after dunks:
Again, I'm waiting for him to retire so I can start watching again.
This is an Asian women’s volleyball video. Did you link the right video?
If you aren’t actively watching basketball and are waiting for LeBron to retire so you “can start watching again”, how do you know all of this about LeBron led teams and their ball movement and passing? Are you just citing random numbers and making up narratives as you go?
