LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
The secrets to success
Kobe never shot 35% with 6 TO's
Only LeFraud has played that badly, twice
LeFraud also averaged 5 TO's per 24 minutes in the recent Olympics, thus keeping opponents close, so I guess that's 3 times
Then there's the 11' Finals and 10' meltdown.. And when did Kobe lose as a -700 favorite and league favorite like Bron did in 09'??.. When did he turn the ball over 7 times in the critical 4th quarter to lose such a big series like 09' Lebron, or make ridiculous defensive blunder and guard the wrong man
Well if you think averaging 15/4/4 on 37.7% TS is better than 27/8/6 on 38.3% TS, good for you I guess.
Rank the worst series of both of them and I'm guessing Kobe has 7 or 8 of the worst 10 and that's despite LeBron playing 10+ more series.
Likewise if you listed the Top 10, LeBron probably has 7 or 8 of the top 10.
Meanwhile do you really want to compare 39 year old Kobe and 39 year old LeBron?
Well if you think averaging 15/4/4 on 37.7% TS is better than 27/8/6 on 38.3% TS, good for you I guess.
Rank the worst series of both of them and I'm guessing Kobe has 7 or 8 of the worst 10 and that's despite LeBron playing 10+ more series.
Likewise if you listed the Top 10, LeBron probably has 7 or 8 of the top 10.
You're looking at Kobe from 97-00' when he was 2nd option, but only Lebron lost as 1st option while shooting under 40% (07',08', 15').
and he also had 6 TO's for 2 of those series.
And again, only Lebron reached the lowest possible caliber of 35% and 6 TO's.
Since Jokic is a better "passer-rebounder-scorer" than Lebron, what's Lebron's goat case without using longevity?
keep in mind that Bird, Magic, Luka and others can also make a case for best "passer-rebounder-scorer", and furthermore this argument already failed when Jordan beat it vs Bird/Magic - this precedent makes it no longer a goat argument to begin with.. So again, what's Lebron's goat case without using longevity?..
Btw, if you want to start talking about being the best young player, we know that Lebron was a g-league caliber against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old by virtue of 35% and 6 TO's per game against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics.. Meanwhile, Kobe dominated the Spurs as 1st option at the same ages in 01' and 02', or Magic was MVP at 20, or MJ set the record vs the 86' Celtics - so tons of guys were goat-level against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old, while Lebron was g-league caliber.
So Kobe has only won twice as a first option. Sad. Was the first option from 25 years old. All the way through his prime. Not nearly good enough for 2nd GOAT.
And please stop trying to compare young Kobe to young LeBron. That's just sad.
Kobe in his first 10 seasons.
LeBron through his first 10 seasons.
Calling LeBron G-League caliber is amazing.
So, even though the empirical evidence has shown the complete opposite for everything else you have claimed when I took the time to look up the data, I was curious about this as it seems plausible. Perhaps someone that does not watch basketball but has a self-claimed stratospheric basketball IQ could indeed know this without even watching the games?
Here is what I found:
Cleveland 2002-03 (pre-LeBron) = 20.9 team assists per game
Cleveland 2003-04 (with LeBron) = 22 team assists per game (
Recent Thread Cliffs:
So Kobe has only won twice as a first option. Sad. Was the first option from 25 years old. All the way through his prime. Not nearly good enough for 2nd GOAT.
2008 JAMISON............ #14 for MVP........ 2x all-star
2008 PAU...................... nothing.............. 1x all-star
2005 ZYDRUNAS.......... 2x all-star
2008 PAU...................... 1x all-star
^^^ Jamison was considered better than Pau, and Zydrunas wasn't far behind.
So the point is that Kobe was similar to MJ in that he produced a dominant team the instant he got an all-star like Pau, while Lebron lost for 7 straight years with many all-star teammates or coveted acquisitions, including some that were considered better than Pau (Jamison), and then he mostly lost with 2 all-star teammates from 2011-2017 - this is a joke compared to Kobe instantly having a great team with just Pau.
Accordingly, unlike Jordan or Kobe elevating guys like Pippen or Pau, Lebron couldn't elevate guys that were better than young Pippen or made more all-star teams than Pau.. Lebron couldn't elevate any of these guys because his skillset imposes spot-up roles, while Kobe and MJ's expert jumpshooting could play off teammates and elevate them to all-time status.. So once again, we see that the lack of teammate development is a skillset issue, similar to the lack of brand of ball and viable winning on the championship level.
If you put a g-league player in the Finals and gave him the ultra green light, they would average about 20 on worst-ever efficiency and turnovers.
That's exactly what Lebron did... Twice...
Accordingly, he proved to be g-league caliber against championship comp when he was 22 and 23 years old.. Otoh, Kobe was goat-caliber versus the exact same team at 22 and 23 (Spurs).
If you put a g-league player in the Finals and gave him the ultra green light, they would average about 20 on worst-ever efficiency and turnovers.
That's exactly what Lebron did... Twice...
Accordingly, he proved to be g-league caliber against championship comp when he was 22 and 23 years old.. Otoh, Kobe was goat-caliber versus the exact same team at 22 and 23 (Spurs).
Sorry, but Kobe was 23 years old and played the Spurs in 2002. LeBron was 22 and played the Spurs in 2007.
Are you saying a team separated by 5 years is the “exact same team”? There must be a misunderstanding somewhere because if not that is incredibly stupid.
Also interesting that you used the range 22-23 to describe both of them when Kobe was 23 and LeBron was 22.
Media voting means nothing... The only accolade that has merit are coaches or fan voting, aka all-star team appearances.
For example, imagine Lebron averaging 10 more points than all teammates and not getting FMVP.
I honestly believe the media feels comfortable punking Curry in 2015 and also the 2024 Olympics because he isn't physically imposing.. Seriously... I can't think of a better reason that he gets punked by the media in spots where Lebron, Kobe, Jokic, or anyone else wouldn't.
And you'll claim that Iggy played great defense, except he didn't - it turns out that everyone locked up Lebron on that playoff run... Lebron shot like trash in every round because this was the only playoff run of his career with very high volume, which necessitated more jumpers than normal, hence the horrific efficiency for the entire run - this is all statistical fact - Lebron shot a lot more jumpers and very poorly on them... The media simply doesn't think things through like this, so they FOOLISHLY gave the fmvp to Iggy.. If they had realized that Lebron shot poorly in every series, then Iggy doesn't get FMVP.
So again, media awards mean nothing.. The only thing that matters are titles as the best player, winning with less star teammates (less perennial all-stars), and things like scoring titles, PER, but only with great brand of ball too (capability for high team assists and the best brand of ball, aka Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, etc).
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Sorry, but Kobe was 23 years old and played the Spurs in 2002. LeBron was 22 and played the Spurs in 2007.
Are you saying a team separated by 5 years is the “same team”? There must be a misunderstanding somewhere because if not that is incredibly stupid.
Also interesting that you used the range 22-23 to describe both of them when Kobe was 23 and LeBron was 22.
Kobe dominated the Spurs in 2002 and 2001:
Stats at 22 years old vs Spurs:
2001 KOBE........... 33/7/7 on 50% (3 TO's)
2007 LEBRON...... 22/7/7 on 36% (6 TO's)
So you're dead wrong... Again.
This is why I stopped responding on the assists topic that you were destroyed on... Your posts are just too inaccurate and riddled with basic misunderstandings that require a thorough education of the basics.
Fallguy,
Have you ever considered wagering on basketball games? With your claimed successful prediction rate of 99%, you’d easily be able to clear 7 figures per year in betting income, no lie. Maybe even 8 figures if you pushed yourself. Imagine the possibilities if you started to watch basketball?
Kobe dominated the Spurs in 2002 and 2001:
Stats at 22 years old vs Spurs:
2001 KOBE........... 33/7/7 on 50% (3 TO's)
2007 LEBRON...... 22/7/7 on 36% (6 TO's)
So you're dead wrong... Again.
This is why I stopped responding on the assists topic that you were destroyed on... Your posts are just too inaccurate and riddled with basic misunderstandings that require a thorough education of the basics.
Fallguy,
A team in 2001/2002 is not the “exact same team” as one in 2007 just because they are from the same city and have the same logo.
Do you understand that? Is English your first language? Did you get pushed down the stairs when you were a toddler?
2001 is separated by 6 years from 2007, so that makes you even more dumb than the 2002 = 2007 claim.
Championship comp.... That's the standard - Lebron was g-league caliber against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old, while Kobe was goat-caliber
Championship comp.... That's the standard - Lebron was g-league caliber against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old, while Kobe was goat-caliber
2001 Spurs made the Western conference finals and lost 0-4. This is not the finals let alone championship caliber.
2002 Spurs lost 1-4 in the second round. This is not the finals let alone championship caliber.
The 2007 Spurs won the NBA championship. This is, by definition, championship caliber.
The 2001/2002 Spurs are not the “exact same team” as the 2007 Spurs.
You say the stupidest **** and it’s honestly super cute.
2001 Spurs made the Western conference finals and lost 0-4. This is not the finals let alone championship caliber.
2002 Spurs lost 1-4 in the second round. This is not the finals let alone championship caliber.
The 2007 Spurs won the NBA championship. This is, by definition, championship caliber.
The 2001/2002 Spurs are not the “exact same team” as the 2007 Spurs.
You say the stupidest **** and it’s honestly super cute.
Kobe stopped the Spurs from being champion in 01' and 02', but they were still better than the 07' squad by virtue it being peak Duncan.
Regardless, the point remains that Lebron was g-league caliber against championship comp at 22-23 years old, while Magic was FMVP at 20, or MJ was breaking the record against the goat Celtics, or Kobe was leading the Lakers over Duncan...
Meanwhile, Lebron was a massive bed-wetter, choker and loser from 04-11' and needed to team-up with opponents thereafter... When Lebron entered the league, no one thought that he would give up after Year 7 and team-up with opponents thereafter, so he failed expectation.
2008 JAMISON............ #14 for MVP........ 2x all-star
2008 PAU...................... nothing.............. 1x all-star
2005 ZYDRUNAS.......... 2x all-star
2008 PAU...................... 1x all-star
^^^ Jamison was considered better than Pau, and Zydrunas wasn't far behind.
So the point is that Kobe was similar to MJ in that he produced a dominant team the instant he got an all-star like Pau, while Lebron lost for 7 straight years with many all-star teammates or coveted acquisitions,, and then he
Kobe dominated the 08' Spurs with 29 on 53%, while Lebron was g-league caliber against the 07' Spurs with 22 on 36% and 6 TO's.
So Lebron is inferior to Kobe regardless of how we look at it.. If we want to look at Kobe against the same team, we see that he destroyed the 08' Spurs, who were defending champs after destroying Lebron..
And if we want to look at same age, we see that 01' Kobe destroyed the Spurs at 22 years old, while Lebron was worst-ever.
So Kobe's case over Lebron is simple - Kobe out-performed Lebron against the same opponents, such as the 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics, 11' Mavs, and 07/08' Spurs, while also having a superior skillset that can 1) produce dynasties/higher team ceilings, and 2) win with less, such as a sidekick that was worse than Bosh or Love..
[QUOTE=2016 Finals OMG]
Lebron beat a 73-win team
[/QUOTE]
Lebron should be knocked for needing 7 games in the 16' Finals despite clear-cut, unprecedented help:
1) a sidekick that outplayed the MVP
2) 6th straight season as the preseason favorite
3) the only team with 3 franchise players, compared to 1 for Curry (franchise players are elite producers that were asked to build a lottery team from scratch)
4) teammate hitting an isolation, unassisted winner (it's rare for sidekicks to be the "closer")
Lebron had the favored roster in 2016 with 3 franchise players and preseason favorite status for the 6th straight year, so he should be knocked for falling to underdog or losing with these favorites all 6 years (except the Allen miracle).. It's an underperformance of favored talent to start as the preseason favorite and then fall to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (except the Allen miracle).. It's also fraud because falling to underdog creates the misperception of an "upset" later on, smh.
Furthermore, the only reason Lebron needed 7 games is because he wet the bed with 24 ppg and 6 TO's thru 4 games to get a 1-3 deficit... This is similar to the 13' Finals where he averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games and 23 on 43 % thru 6, thereby needing a teammate to force Game 7.
But carry-on believing the fraud.. When Lebron won his 4 Finals, he always had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (carrying the scoring load on championship level) like Curry, Jordan, and Kobe did... These guys could carry the scoring load because they had expert jumpshooting skill and could get 40 while the ball moves, so they had sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams when carrying the scoring load..
Otoh, Lebron lacks sufficient brand at high scoring levels (too ball-dominant), so he loses to injured, 1-star Orlando Magic as -700 favorite.. Since he can't carry the scoring load against top teams, he needs all-time scoring help and equal-scoring partners like Kyrie, Wade, and AD...
Everyone complains about Mo's 18 on 38% against the Magic, but MJ always won with that - Lebron simply lacked the brand of ball at 38 ppg to beat top teams, so he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams), and he never carried scoring load on championship level (never defeated max defensive attention)... Btw, in addition to Mo's 18 on 38%, the Cavs also had the #3 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls).
Congrats MR. FG has given up and you've won in a landslide of who won the assist debate, with the only voter for FG being FG.
Gee I wonder why they won. Oh Shaq averaged 38/17 on 61% shooting. Kobe's embarrassing series is the only reason it went to 6 games.
Fact is, if Kobe didn't have big men saving his ass he has one chip.
