2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
Consumers are subsidized when they buy EVs and that allows Tesla to sell more cars and that's an indirect subsidy to Tesla i agree.
Carbon credits have nothing to do with subsidies though. That's money other polluting company all over the world pay Tesla to offset those companies' emissions. Afaik the federal government has nothing to do with it.
If regulators in California, China, the EU or wherever they are impose a rule according to which companies that emit CO2 either pay fines or buy credits from companies that "remove CO2 from the planet" or in other ways have positive externalities regarding emissions, that's not Tesla receiving a subsidy is it, especially not one paid by federal taxpayers.
Trump is going allin against trans activism
https://x.com/SwipeWright/status/1854463...
1) Revoke Biden EOs regarding trans issues
2 Ban all federal agencies from promoting gender or sex transition at any age
3) Ban on federal money being used for all gender affirming care
4) ban on gender affirming surgery for minors nationwide
5) promotion of class action lawsuits against doctors who performed gender surgeries on minors
6) DoJ will investigate big pharma and hospitals networks about possible fraud having hidden information about long term side effects of transition from patients to push for the procedures and hormones and so on
7) pass a law that will state the only US federal gvmnt recognized genders are male and female
Grunching
Have we reached the point yet where the libs are agreeing it was all the fault of the people who aren't white enough?
Walking on eggshells sucks, but sometimes it's best to keep your head down. I was talking with a lefty friend a while back and telling him that some of our friends are Trump supporters. He didn't believe me. The problem is that they won't admit it to him (or publicly) because of how they'd be treated.
same
i've seen friends do things like find a new landscaper because they noticed their old one had a trump bumper sticker or declare they'll never get another oil change at that shop again because they had a trump sign out front
or even worse, talk about cutting out certain people from their lives because they are trump supporters
i try to explain to them that their replacement landscaper or mechanic will probably also be a trump supporter and we have a lot of good mutual friends in common who i know voted for trump
they never believe me because if you frame it as "half the electorate supports him" then suddenly their "he's worse than hitler only a lunatic could support him" starts losing credibility
If I'm being honest, conservatives engage in witch-hunts as well. However — and this is anecdotal — my moderate and conservative friends tend to just roll their eyes and laugh at things they disagree with; forgive and forget. They're annoyed by this and that but aren't that judgmental, while my lefty friends can't get past political disagreements and lose their **** over trivial disagreements.
same
Carbon credits have nothing to do with subsidies though. That's money other polluting company all over the world pay Tesla to offset those companies' emissions. Afaik the federal government has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps it's time you read up on the subject because the entire cap and trade system was devised and imposed by both state and Federal governments. That's what they "have to do with it".
Perhaps it's time you read up on the subject because the entire cap and trade system was devised and imposed by both state and Federal governments. That's what they "have to do with it".
I am not aware of a US federal cap and trade mandatory system in place. Source?
Yes Tesla makes money because of regulations in many places impose stuff to do to companies , but if OSHA imposes the use of air filters in some settings, that's not a subsidy to air filter producers is it?
Is any regulation which causes some company to sell more goods and services to allow other companies to fulfill their new regulatory duties a subsidy?
I am not aware of a US federal cap and trade mandatory system in place. Source?
Yes Tesla makes money because of regulations in many places impose stuff to do to companies , but if OSHA imposes the use of air filters in some settings, that's not a subsidy to air filter producers is it?
Is any regulation which causes some company to sell more goods and services to allow other companies to fulfill their new regulatory duties a subsidy?
I apologize, the cap and trade credit system is at the state level in the USA.
And yes it is a subsidy because the company receiving the credit is getting revenue that the government would otherwise be receiving as compensation for the environmental cost of the company producing the pollution. The fact the governments allow those credits to be traded and earned by companies who don't pollute is what makes it a subsidy to those companies. The alternative where it wouldn't be a subsidy is if the polluting companies were not allowed to trade them, meaning companies which pollute must compensate directly to the government to cover the cost of their pollution and companies which don't pollute don't have to pay compensation but also don't get a credit for avoiding polluting.
I apologize, the cap and trade credit system is at the state level in the USA.
And yes it is a subsidy because the company receiving the credit is getting revenue that the government would otherwise be receiving as compensation for the environmental cost of the company producing the pollution. The fact the governments allow those credits to be traded and earned by companies who don't pollute is what makes it a subsidy to those companies. The alternative where it wouldn't be a subsidy is if the po
Ok so there is no federal subsidy related to carbon credits in the USA so when Musk wants to massively reduce federal government waste , the topic has nothing to do with carbon credits even if you want to believe the above logic.
Under the above logic Tesla is pocketing money that stupid leftist governments like that of the state of California, or the EU, or China, want to give them, good for him and investors in Tesla and the Sp500 to take as much of that as he can, and not a federal taxpayer problem.
On the right it is not hypocritical to always take maximum advantage of other people stupidity when legally allowed to do so, it's actually a moral imperative to do so as much as possible.
Musk is potentially, possibly going to be tasked (directly, or indirectly) to reduce federal government waste by the Trump admin, so yes the EV subdisies apply, no carbon credits have nothing to do with it.
And you can at the same time claim they should exist, while pocketing as many of them as you can while they last.
Buffett thinks that billionaires should be taxed more but until they do he uses every legal tax loophole in the book to the maximum. That's normal ethics for us.
Ok so there is no federal subsidy related to carbon credits in the USA so when Musk wants to massively reduce federal government waste , the topic has nothing to do with carbon credits even if you want to believe the above logic.
Agreed on the carbon credits for automobiles but there's still the $7500 federal subsidy to the consumer to offset their purchase cost of electric cars, a which benefit flows through to the manufacturer of the car by selling a car that might otherwise be unaffordable or cost ineffective vs a petrol-based alternative. That totaled $21 billion back in 2021 (source).
Agreed on the carbon credits for automobiles but there's still the $7500 federal subsidy to the consumer to offset their purchase cost of electric cars, a which benefit flows through to the manufacturer of the car by selling a car that might otherwise be unaffordable or cost ineffective vs a petrol-based alternative. That totaled $21 billion back in 2021 (source).
Yes that i immediatly allowed to be considered a subsidy to EV makers. But Musk said he wants it gone. I know you believe he is lying, and he could be, but maybe republicans in congress don't care and will remove it in reconciliation because they don't care very much about electric cars no matter how much they now love (or pretend to) Musk.
We'll see.
Re election denial, the claim that "Biden took too many votes in 2020 vs HRC in 2016 so there were fake votes in 2020" can also be structurally debunked (in the sense of making it clear that vote amount isn't a sign of any conspiracy) with these take (source is a rightwing person btw)
/
If we consider the hypothesis that the 18 million extra votes were fake, why would they be distributed in this way over all states?
Some of the largest-scale fraud would be in states like Hawaii and Vermont, where there was no risk of Biden losing. And they didn't even try harder in swing states.
We get the same thing sometimes. When I said I was supporting Biden people called me a genocider and a rapist supporter lol Certain leftists will attack you if you say you support dems.
You get it from outed leftists
Saying you support Trump you get it from people who identify as mainstream or moderate
It has been interesting to watch the reaction of the "burn it all down" contingent of the forum. I was curious whether, in the breach, they really wanted to watch it burn (metaphorically, of course). Most do, it seems. Not all, but most.
Grunching
Have we reached the point yet where the libs are agreeing it was all the fault of the people who aren't white enough?
That would be pretty stupid. If you wanted to blame a demographic (which isn't especially productive in any event), it seems like white men would be the obvious place to start, since that is the demographic that supported Trump most fervently.
I am curious 2 or 4 years from now, if democracy still exists in the same, fair sense it existed up to today in the USA, if all those people who claimed Trump was a threat to democracy will admit they were wrong or not.
Speaking of which here in Italy a lot of people aren't happy for the electoral outcome in the USA but the vast majority of them is treating this like when the tories won the elections with BoJo in the UK, in the sense of "damn the right won that sucks" not in the "threat to democracy" sense.
I asked several why, they basically all said some variation of "well tbh he was president for 4 years already and i disliked his policies but democracy went on fine".
Yes that i immediatly allowed to be considered a subsidy to EV makers. But Musk said he wants it gone. I know you believe he is lying, and he could be, but maybe republicans in congress don't care and will remove it in reconciliation because they don't care very much about electric cars no matter how much they now love (or pretend to) Musk.
We'll see.
CNBC: Musk embraces Trump and scorns subsidies. But Tesla still lobbies for US benefits
When Elon Musk endorsed Donald Trump for president last month, the Tesla founder and chief executive backed a candidate who vows to “drill, baby, drill,” “end the electric vehicle mandate” and reduce subsidies of the sort that helped Tesla become the U.S.’s dominant EV manufacturer.
So instrumental have government loans, tax breaks and other EV policies been to Tesla’s fast growth that despite Musk’s gradual embrace of the former president and his Republican Party rhetoric in recent years, the company continues to lobby the U.S. and state governments for benefits championed by the Democratic Party.
In February, for instance, Tesla in a filing with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, or EPA, urged the Biden administration to allow California to pursue stricter vehicle emissions rules than the rest of the country – an idea Trump opposes.
Months earlier, in a previous filing with the agency, Tesla lobbied the government for regulations that would ban the production of most new gasoline cars by 2035 – the so-called “EV mandate” that Trump and others on the American right have criticized.
The disparity is hardly the first time that the billionaire entrepreneur – himself increasingly dismissive of subsidies – has sent mixed signals on business and politics.
“Elon tends to say he’s hostile to subsidies while Tesla is gobbling them up like a hungry Godzilla,” said Mike Murphy, a Republican strategist who runs the EV Politics Project, a Los Angeles-based advocacy group that seeks bipartisan support for electric vehicles.
Source:
I am curious 2 or 4 years from now, if democracy still exists in the same, fair sense it existed up to today in the USA, if all those people who claimed Trump was a threat to democracy will admit they were wrong or not.
This is a very poorly framed gotcha imo. It ignores the concepts of probability and incremental damage. I'll use the same analogy I always use. Trump and his supporters are firing rounds into a dam for short term gain. In all likelihood, the dam will still be standing at the end of Trump's second term. But that isn't proof that the people who criticized firing rounds into the dam were being histrionic. And at the end of Trump's term, it certainly won't be proof that the dam is just as strong as it was before people starting firing rounds into it. To the contrary, the dam almost certainly will be weaker, even if the houses haven't been washed away.
Speaking of which here in Italy a lot of people aren't happy for the electoral outcome in the USA but the vast majority of them is treating this like when the tories won the elections with BoJo in the UK, in the sense of "damn the right won that sucks" not in the "threat to democracy" sense.
I asked several why, they basically all said some variation of "well tbh he was president for 4 years already and i disliked his policies but democracy went on fine".
Sure. This sort of reaction seems entirely consistent with human psychology.
We have to see if there is a re-alignment now that Musk doesn't try to play both sides anymore and went allin in support of Trump/republicans .
It is certainly something that will get a ton of scrutiny (and rightly so) because of the massive conflict of interest potential among other reasons.
Fwiw Ford did well on the news of Trump win so the market might think gasoline cars are going to be treated less harshly now
That would be pretty stupid. If you wanted to blame a demographic (which isn't especially productive in any event), it seems like white men would be the obvious place to start, since that is the demographic that supported Trump most fervently.
Trump won every demographic besides Blacks and Jews. And I'm not actually believing the exit polls that 80% of Jews voted Harris
We have to see if there is a re-alignment now that Musk doesn't try to play both sides anymore and went allin in support of Trump/republicans .
It is certainly something that will get a ton of scrutiny (and rightly so) because of the massive conflict of interest potential among other reasons.
Fwiw Ford did well on the news of Trump win so the market might think gasoline cars are going to be treated less harshly now
The mandates to reach whatever percentage of green cars by whatever date will most certainly disappear
Bolded is a very poorly framed gotcha imo. It ignores the concepts of probability and incremental damage. I'll use the same analogy I always use. Trump and his supporters are firing rounds into a dam for short term gain. In all likelihood, the dam will still be standing at the end of Trump's second term. But that isn't proof that the people who criticized firing rounds into the dam were being histrionic. And at the end of Trump's term, it certainly won't be proof that the dam is just as str
It's not a gotcha, it's "if it doesn't materialize will that be enough to admit the risk assessment was wrong".
We already discussed that it's not like automatic that if a risk doesn't materialize , it was never there. I agree with that in general.
I actually think democracy will get *stronger* and already is now vs 2020. I actually believe that republicans are inherently more democratic than the democratic party, especially republican nominated judges do respect the division of power and the actual text of the constitution a lot more than democrat nominated judges, and that is very protective for actual democracy.
But anyway, for example if election day becomes a national holiday, that makes democracy stronger.
If photos ID are mandated to vote & they are issued for free, that makes democracy stronger.
If there is no government pushed censorship on social media (unlike with Biden under covid), democracy is stronger.
If fewer executive actions are ex post deemed unconstitutional by SCOTUS, democracy is stronger (fewer attempts of constitutional violations = stronger democracy).
If more issues , through congressual, executive or judicial decisions, become state issues instead of federal issues, democracy is a lot stronger.
The mandates to reach whatever percentage of green cars by whatever date will most certainly disappear
There isn't any federal one lol, but lobbies managed to convince people there was one :p
There are some states that have on their books a ban on gasoline cars sale after year X, but no such thing exists at the federal level afaik
That would be pretty stupid. If you wanted to blame a demographic (which isn't especially productive in any event), it seems like white men would be the obvious place to start, since that is the demographic that supported Trump most fervently.
True, but white men voting Trump is expected. There seems to be a particular disdain by hard lefties for the folks who got uppity and wandered off the plantation.
