LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
It doesn't matter that Kobe wasn't 1st option for a dominant champion or dynasty because they still require highly-assisted 1st options, regardless of whether Kobe achieved it or not.
Since possession-tracking began in 1997, every instance of "the best basketball" required highly-assisted 1st options.. This includes 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years (Jordan , Shaq, Duncan, Curry) and 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss per round or less, aka 4 los
How on earth is Kobe still #2 in your rankings when you admit above that he wasn’t even the first option when the Lakers were in their early 2000’s “dynasty” period? It’s like you can’t even link two coherent thoughts together in your brain.
And 12 of 12 dominant champions.
You showed how 90% of the league isn't a cancer and it's just 10% of the players that have canceroust ball-dominance, which cannot be the 1st option for the best basketball.
This cancer of high-scoring ball-dominance began in 2000 with Grant Hill, since he was the first 25 ppg player with under a 40% assisted rate.. Since Grant Hill, the league has seen many low-assisted players that have high volume of unassisted buckets, thereby lowering team assists league-wide.
They started tracking assisted fg% in 1997. Do you see the difference between these two things?:
1) There were no players below a 40% assisted rate and above 25ppg before Grant Hill.
2) The league didn’t track assisted fg% before Grant Hill.
Of course you don’t. Because your brain can’t hold two coherent thoughts at the same time.
It should also be noted that "highly assisted" sometimes means only 40%, which is about 90% of the players (446 of 509 players this year are above 40%).
OMG, something that happens 90% of the time happened 4 times out of 4. Such an amazing stat!
This is hilarious actually. I didn’t realize the percent was that high.
Fallguy legitimately does not understand mathematics at all.
How on earth is Kobe still #2 in your rankings when you admit above that he wasn’t even the first option when the Lakers were in their early 2000’s “dynasty” period? It’s like you can’t even link two coherent thoughts together in your brain.
As the team's 1st option, Kobe got much closer to a 3-peat than Lebron, who was beaten by record amount and blown off the floor in historic embarrassment - the Heat were NOWHERE NEAR three-peat caliber, while Kobe's Lakers from 08-10' were pretty close..
The reason that Kobe got so much closer to a 3-peat and dynasty than Lebron (despite having a sidekick that was worse than Bosh), is because he's closer to the highly-assisted 1st option required of dynasties than Lebron is.. Lebron leads the skillset of ball-dominators that have assisted rates in the 30's and peak at 40% once or twice, while Kobe had many seasons in the high 40's - his jumpshooting volume and footwork was only matched by Jordan, so he's closer to the highly-assisted player that is required of dynasties, while Lebron and literally IN the category of low-assisted ball-dominators that cannot produce dynasties
In addition to being one of the closest "near-misses" to having a 3-peat and dynasty, Kobe had other goat achievements like winning without another top 75 player or 20 ppg scorer.. He won with a sidekick that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options of Love and Bosh.. Winning with secondary producers like Klay, Pau or Pippen requires the 1st option to carry the scoring load on the championship level (defeat max defensive attention), which Lebron never did - he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, while jumpshooters like Curry or Kobe can effectively carry the scoring load (sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams), and therefore win with less.
They started tracking assisted fg% in 1997... Do you see the difference between these two things?:
There's a reason that there were no 25 ppg ball-dominators for 3 straight years from 97' to 99' and it's because that type of player had just recently entered the league - guys like Iverson, Penny and Hill had recently entered the league and didn't start averaging 25 until around 2000.
And do you realize that if we replace a highly-assisted 1st option with a low-assisted one like Iverson, this impacts league average in team assists a material amount.. It only takes 5 or 6 ball-dominators to enter the league and league-wide assists would be reduced by half or 1 per game (give or take)... League-wide assists might fall from 25 to 24 or something and that's we saw in 1995 when assists dropped below 25 for the first time - this is when Iverson, Penny and Hill entered the league - aside from Jordan in 89', there were no players like them previously,.. This type of player would continue entering the league from that point forward, which caused team assists to decline until the league copied Curry's brand around 2018 or 2019 - that's when assists were restored to the pre-ball-dominator levels of 80[s and early 90's..
TLDR: High-scoring ball-dominators and their unassisted buckets killed team assists during Lebron's prime until Curry's brand brought it back.
This is hilarious actually. I didn’t realize the percent was that high.
Fallguy legitimately does not understand mathematics at all.
Fistar agrees with me that a small faction of the league (about 10%) is a cancerous skillset that produces spot-up roles for teammates, lower teammate assists, zero player development, bad fits, bad chemistry, and cannot be the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions - 0 for 12)
So what's the point being made exactly?
It's like you guys can't refute anything, so you just say gibberish and pretend it's something.
If you're at the top of your industry and your primary competitor starts stacking the deck, you have no choice but to respond in kind... But apparently, you aren't a businessman... We're talking about a competitive playing field that Lebron ruined by teaming up with his opponents.
Durant's only problem was waiting 6 years to respond - he should've teamed up right after Lebron did because his organic chip in 2012 was stolen by Lebron's deck-stacking.
Durant had already proved his superiority to Le
^^^ crickets on this one - poster gets his ass kicked and runs away - pretends it didn't happen - story of this thread
itt we learn that a cancer playing-style is interpreted by new fans as "he just needs more help".
They don't realize that "needing more help" falls short of the GOAT standard of developing teammates and winning with what you have... However, high scorers with low-assisted rates cannot develop teammates because their style of unassisted scoring lowers everyone's assists and imposes spot-up roles, thereby killing all player development and prospects for elite chemistry.
itt you think winning an argument is saying the Thunder were guaranteed to win a title if the Heat didn't make the Finals.
Which is beyond utter nonsense.
Just quit the thread. It's over. You've lost.
itt you think winning an argument is saying the Thunder were guaranteed to win a title if the Heat didn't make the Finals.
Which is beyond utter nonsense.
Just quit the thread. It's over. You've lost.
History shows that Lebron's deck-stacking stole organic chips from 12' Durant, 13' Duncan and 16' Curry.
This denial that Lebron's massive collusions had any effect is so dumb that it's hard to articulate how dumb it is - "santa is real" type low brain thinking.
So the larger point is that durant or SOMEONE had to respond to lebron's deck-stacking... It makes no sense for Lebron's peers to toil away organically, while he teams up to win chips... And Lebron decimated the East by putting all the good players on his team, so who was going to beat the Thunder from the trash East, especially after the Thunder just beat the Spurs??... So it's you that is delusional about this stuff
It should also be noted that "highly assisted" sometimes means only 40%, which is about 90% of the players (446 of 509 players this year are above 40%).
OMG, something that happens 90% of the time happened 4 times out of 4. Such an amazing stat!
We're only talking about 1st options, and a big chunk of 1st options are low-assisted players.
Obviously, it's bball 101 that most players in the NBA are role players, and most role players are highly-assisted players like spot-up shooters or simple dunkers.
I hope that on some level, you can understand the level of ineptness that you have about the game of basketball.
Again, low-assisted 1st options (which are a huge chunk of 1st options) cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) since 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions required highly-assisted 1st options (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Jokic, Tatum, Durant).. The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.
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Recent Thread Cliffs
Since possession-tracking began in 1997, there have been an influx of low-assisted 1st options (ball-dominators) that have taken over the top scoring lists each year, yet the 1st options for 4 of 4 dynasties and 8 of 8 dominant champions during this short time period were still highly-assisted players (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Jokic, Tatum, Durant).
The issue is that low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty and dominant champion has.
Anyway. Last year the NBA Conference Finals had:
Luka who finished with 551 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Tatum who finished 520 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Edwards who finished 524 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Halliburton who finished 526 out of 554 in assisted percentage
If you asked me it would appear that you actually want your best player to not be particularly high in assisted percentage if you want to be successful.
LeBron finished 480 fwiw. It seems he should have tried harder to not get assisted. It would have led to more success.
Anyway. Last year the NBA Conference Finals had:
Luka who finished with 551 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Tatum who finished 520 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Edwards who finished 524 out of 554 in assisted percentage
Halliburton who finished 526 out of 554 in assisted percentage
If you asked me it would appear that you actually want your best player to not be particularly high in assisted percentage if you want to be successful.
LeBron finished 480 fwiw. It seems he should have tried harder t
^^^ Today's era has a lot of bad, low-assisted basketball that underachieves internationally and often loses internationally.
So again, despite the massive influx of low-assisted players since 2000, all the dominant champions and dynasties in this short period still required highly-assisted 1st options (12 of 12 times), while ball-dominators like Lebron, Grant Hill, Arenas, and many more are 0 for 12..... just since 2000...
You can't get past that.. The ball-dominant skillsets of most modern players are simply inferior, by virtue of being unable to produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).. This is a function of their large volume of unassisted buckets that produce spot-up roles for teammates, lower teammate assists, zero young player development, bad chemistry and perennial losing (never a dynasty).
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1st options for dynasties or dominant champions since 1997
Jordan........ capable of 50% assisted rate
Shaq.......... capable of 50% assisted rate
Duncan...... capable of 50% assisted rate
Curry.......... capable of 50% assisted rate
Tatum........ capable of 50% assisted rate
Durant....... capable of 50% assisted rate
Jokic........... capable of 50% assisted rate
Luka, Lebron and other low-assisted 1st options spend their careers in the 30's and peak once at 40... They're low-assisted players and it's intuitive that Luka, Lebron and company are ball-dominators, while Curry, MJ and Tatum play differently.. The former has never produced the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).
So again, despite the massive influx of low-assisted scorers since 2000, all the dominant champions and dynasties in this short period still required highly-assisted 1st options (12 of 12 times), while ball-dominators like Lebron, Iverson, and many more are 0 for 12..... just since 2000... This is a function of their large volume of unassisted buckets that produce spot-up roles, low teammate assists, zero young player development, bad chemistry and perennial losing (never a dynasty).
Otoh, highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty and dominant champion has.
Does Guiness World Records have a category for most posts ever in an online argument without managing to convince a single person ?
Does Guiness World Records have a category for most posts ever in an online argument without managing to convince a single person ?
Can you imagine the entire amount of time fallguy has wasted not only on this account, but on the 200+ other accounts that were perma-banned over the years?
What a noble pursuit.
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1st options for dynasties or dominant champions since 1997
Jordan........ capable of 50% assisted rate
Shaq.......... capable of 50% assisted rate
Duncan...... capable of 50% assisted rate
Curry.......... capable of 50% assisted rate
Tatum........ capable of 50% assisted rate
Durant....... capable of 50% assisted rate
Jokic........... capable of 50% assisted rate
Luka, Lebron and other low-assisted 1st options spend their careers in the 30's and peak once at 40... They're low-assisted players and it's
Can you please explain, in as much detail and precision as possible (I am giving you full rein here to wall of text this one), why you have Kobe Bryant #2 on your greatest basketball players of all time list, but you are not talking about him at all in your recent lists of dynasties or dominant champions? For that era of Lakers, you’ve fully replaced him by Shaq now. You used to say that Shaq was a perennial loser until Kobe saved him, because Kobe was a jump shooter. Something is… different now.
I am not disagreeing with you leaving Kobe out by the way. If you recall, this whole side-AIDS branch of your primary super-AIDS argument was from you nonsensically ranking Kobe Bryant so high. Did something in your argument change, and instead of just admitting it, you’re committing a few hundred posts to try to tap dance your way around admitting you were wrong? Just say it fallguy. It will feel empowering, I promise.
The beginner format for the fans doesn't produce the best players anymore and it's the international formats (old-school) that produces the best players..
^^^ Today's era has a lot of bad, low-assisted basketball that underachieves internationally and often loses internationally.
Luka, Lebron and other low-assisted 1st options spend their careers in the 30's and peak once at 40... They're low-assisted players and it's intuitive that Luka, Lebron and company are ball-dominators, while Curry, MJ and Tatum play differently.. The former has never produced the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).
A reminder that Luka Doncic is from Slovenia, developed and played as an international player, and is regarded as one of the greatest international players of all time.
You may also wall of text this one if you wish: explain in as much detail and precision as possible how a player (Luka Doncic) who grew up, developed, and played in the international game, and is one of the most successful and greatest international players ever, is not capable of playing in the style of the international game and is therefore doomed to play this cancerous, inefficient “ball-dominator” brand of ball. Again, a wall of text is perfectly fine here.
Alternatively, you can apply a skill here that most of us learned when we were toddlers: admitting you were wrong and moving on. A plausible alternative explanation would be something like: assists and assisted rate depend on coaching, offensive strategy, and scheme. And elite NBA players like Luka and LeBron sometimes have low assisted rates due to their role in the offense they play in. Something like that, maybe.
Alternatively, you can apply a skill here that most of us learned when we were toddlers: admitting you were wrong and moving on. A plausible alternative explanation would be something like: assists and assisted rate depend on coaching, offensive strategy, and scheme. And elite NBA players like Luka and LeBron sometimes have low assisted rates due to their role in the offense they play in. Something like that, maybe.
So, what you are saying is that a system should be developed based on the players at hand. For instance if you have a guy like Steph Curry who attracts so much attention off the ball, you should use a system to get other guys easier baskets. But you shouldn't do that if you have, say, Ben Simmons and Rondo on your team as a backcourt. Likewise if you have Hakeem you should probably be looking to get him the ball in a spot close to the basket so he can go to work and score, but not so much if you have Rudy Gobert. And if you have a guy like Luka/LeBron you should look to get them to run the offense because they are really good at that role.
This is just so crazy, it might work.
^^^ Today's era has a lot of bad, low-assisted basketball that underachieves internationally and often loses internationally.
So again, despite the massive influx of low-assisted players since 2000, all the dominant champions and dynasties in this short period still required highly-assisted 1st options (12 of 12 times), while ball-dominators like Lebron, Grant Hill, Arenas, and many more are 0 for 12..... just since 2000...
You can't get past that.. The ball-dominant skillsets of most modern play
You know there's stats right (league assist percentage)
2024-25 63.75%
2023-24 63.27%
2022-23 60.24%
2021-22 60.59%
2020-21 60.19%
2019-20 59.66%
2018-19 59.85%
2017-18 58.59%
2016-17 57.95%
2015-16 58.38%
2014-15 58.67%
2013-14 58.36%
2012-13 59.57%
2011-12 57.53%
2010-11 57.80%
2009-10 56.23%
2008-09 56.60%
2007-08 58.45%
2006-07 58.36%
2005-06 57.54%
2004-05 59.33%
2003-04 60.86%
2002-03 60.22%
2001-02 60.50%
2000-01 61.06%
1999-00 60.60%
1998-99 60.53%
And once again, now a player just needs to have 50% (capable) and is regarded as "high assisted". Even though that's well below league average. And they don't even have to average that. They just been to be "capable" of being way below league average.
And once again, now a player just needs to have 50% (capable) and is regarded as "high assisted".. Even though that's well below league average. And they don't even have to average that. They just been to be "capable" of being way below league average.
Again, we're only talking about the assisted rate of 1st options, so the league average is meaningless - you're misguided on this... Look up the assisted rate for the leading scorers of each team and you'll see that many are low-assisted ball-dominators where a 50% assisted rate would be ABSURD - certain types of 1st options simply aren't capable of this such as Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Lebron, Shai Gilgeous, LaMelo, D'Aaron Fox, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brunson, Harden and more...
This type of player isn't capable of 50% assisted rate, while all the 1st options for the best basketball are capable such as Curry, Shaq, Durant, Jordan, Jokic, Tatum, and Duncan - these guys are obviously different from ball-dominators like Luka, Trae or Lebron... You can see that right???...
The difference between a 37% and 47% assisted rate is the difference between Lebron and Curry.... i.e. 37% assisted rate is guys like Lebron, Lillard and SGA, while 47% is Jamal Murray, Curry, Booker, Durant, Jordan, Jaylen Brown, etc.. The former cannot be 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion (too many unassisted buckets that lowers teammate assists, chemistry and brand of ball).. In Lebron's case, his low assisted rate is ridiculous for a frontcourt player and represents the most abnormal ball-dominance ever because a great assist target (forward) is turned into a horrible one (point guard)... Otoh, Shai or LaMelo's ball-dominance isn't abnormal for a point guard, although still suboptimal as the 1st option (high volume of unassisted buckets).
None of this is my opinion - it's just the numbers
