Israel/Palestine thread

Btw there is nothing bad in colonize an area where almost no one lives which is utterly underdeveloped and almost empty because it becomes livable only with great institutions and huge investments.

you want me to quote Herzl or Jabotinsky?

There were different ideas for what it meant 130 years ago

Ask must American Jews that consider themselves zionist what the word means and they will say that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish State

Are there factions of the far right government in Israel that want more? Sure

But that's like saying "AMERICA IS AGAINST ANY TRANS RIGHTS" because some far right people in the President's party are against any trans rights. But the majority of the country and the government are not (excluding the sports and locker room issues)

So are we betting Victor?

I think Israel should be the Jewish State. I am fine with Muslims Christians druze bedoins living there amongst Jews and practicing religion freely. I think Israel has a right to defend itself. If a nation attacks Israel, Israel will attack back. If the attack causes 0 deaths or 1000 is not relevant. Israel should defend itself either way

I have no issue with an eventual Palestinian state. It cannot be militarized for some time but at some point I'd hope they can be fully sovereign

Am I a Zionist Vic?

I didnt think you supported right of return

theres more to equality and freedom than just religion

No they don't get a right of return

But that doesn't answer my question

Am I a Zionist

You already proved you don't believe Israel is going to steal land or you would take my easy money, but do you think I'm a Zionist based on what I've laid out?

The Israel Central Bureau of Statistics defines the population of Israel as including Jews living in all of the West Bank and Palestinians in East Jerusalem but excluding Palestinians anywhere in the rest of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and foreign workers anywhere in Israel. As of December 2023, this calculation stands at approximately 9,842,000 of whom:

73.2% (about 7,208,000 people) are Jews, including about 503,000 living outside the self-defined borders of the State of Israel in the West Bank
21.1% (around 2,080,000 people) are Israeli citizens classified as Arab, some identifying as Palestinian, and including Druze, Circassians, all other Muslims, Christian Arabs, Armenians (which Israel considers "Arab")[2]
An additional 5.7% (roughly 554,000 people) are classified as "others". This diverse group comprises those with Jewish ancestry but not recognized as Jewish by religious law, non-Jewish family members of Jewish immigrants, Christians other than Arabs and Armenians, and residents without a distinct ethnic or religious categorization

This is Israel. It is great. That doesn't mean anyone whose family lived there a century ago get to automatically immigrate

Israel literally steals land every day.

if you are talking about Gaza, yes they are going to steal land in fact, they already did in the Netzarim and Philadelphi.

you can choose a random family from here to send the grand.

https://gazafunds.com/all

gazafunds

Gaza Funds All Campaigns

by Victor m

Israel literally steals land every day.

if you are talking about Gaza, yes they are going to steal land in fact, they already did in the Netzarim and Philadelphi.

you can choose a random family from here to send the grand.

https://gazafunds.com/all

gazafunds

Gaza Funds All Campaigns

So you won't answer any questions and keep posting bullshit

Okay then

you owe 1k

Whereas people whose family questionably lived there two millennia ago do get to immigrate, as long as they possess the correct ethnic membership card. Right. Fine.

Countries have the eight to make immigration laws

I don't thunk the Israel Jewish law has anything to do with 2000 years ago at all

It is to provide a safe haven for Jews

Well, as Jack Kennedy noticed, it's useless to argue who has the fairer claim. The fact is that the Israelis have the power, over a certain part of the territory, but they don't quite know what to do with that power -- they can't formally annexe the West Bank for fear of giving voting rights to the Arabs or else denying those rights and admitting that they run an apartheid regime, as Jimmy Carter called it, and they can't pull out either, because they want the space and they're hogtied to the settler movement even though the settlers tend to hate the Israeli government and refuse to serve in the IDF, and Israeli right-wing suggestions of deporting all the Arabs to the empty Sinai desert and leaving them there are not practical.

they know what they want to do with the area. and since they were allowed to get away with it in Gaza, now they now know exactly how to do it. Smotrich and other leaders are already calling for the Gaza-fication of population centers in the WB.

--I think it is fair to point out that Israel immigration policy over the decades has been to intentionally make the country as "white" as possible, at times being very liberal as pertains to "Jewish" identity; in an effort to strengthen it internally through demographic manipulation. And these efforts have been largely successful, although it will have to figure out a way to incorporate the Haredi population into a functional part of the economy moving forward.

--I think it is fine to point out that Israel isn't perfect. But given the environment it has been in the last 75 years, its actions are completely rationale. And endlessly criticizing Israel while not addressing underlying factors doesn't serve any productive purpose.

--If the world actually wants things to get better for the millions of people living in the West Bank and Gaza, they have to seriously address the underlying dysfunction underlying these populations (brainwashing, religious radicalism, zero sum tribalism, militarization of society, unrealistic political expectations); and without doing this the world can criticize Israel all it wants and dump as many billions into Palestinian aid as they want, and it wont do much to improve things.

No, it's a very negative word for the peoples subjected to brutality. This of course lessens with successive generations but at no point does it become a "good" thing to have happened.

already happened far more than we ever did with any other group in history with UNRWA.

it is everytime you remember that everything they had with colonization they weren't able to have by themselves.

infrastructure, institutions and everything else.

57 why this? people who converted far later than the dispora can move there, there is absolutely no genetic test or requirement.

In exchange for what? As I mentioned, I recently listened to a podcast with former Israel PM Bennett, and I am paraphrasing but he more or less said pretty much everything is negotiable except Israel security.

So anyone negotiating on behalf of the Palestinians would have to offer a believable compromise where they could guarantee the end result wouldn't be rockets fired at Israel from foreign supported non state actors (or the Palestinian state itself). And no one has come close to offering this.

I am ok with donating what we are giving to UNRWA worldwide directly in the cash account of palestianians for 20 years if they move outside Gaza or the west bank.

for some reason I think the people whose livelihood is based upon stealing that money (hamas and leftist NGO employees) will disagree

I agree that judea and Samaria is a complicated issue and it's not fair to the Palestinians living there to keep the status quo

That being said, the government of the West Bank didn't commit October 7th. The government of a territory that was not being occupied did. So the west bank can be debated at another time

And if your argument is that hamas did this for the people in the West Bank, lol