Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
When every Arab country gives reparations to every Jew they kicked out, Israel can do the same to the Palestinians that left (many at the ask of arab nations)
I am ok with donating what we are giving to UNRWA worldwide directly in the cash account of palestianians for 20 years if they move outside Gaza or the west bank.
for some reason I think the people whose livelihood is based upon stealing that money (hamas and leftist NGO employees) will disagree
Yes if Israel annexed the bank and gaza and kicks people out, they should get reparations but that means never ask for right of return again
Excellent point
In exchange for what? As I mentioned, I recently listened to a podcast with former Israel PM Bennett, and I am paraphrasing but he more or less said pretty much everything is negotiable except Israel security. So anyone negotiating on behalf of the Palestinians would have to offer a believable compromise where they could guarantee the end result wouldn't be rockets fired at I
Yes, it's pie in the sky stuff but when Hamas had even contemplated agreeing to the Arab peace initiative in regards to borders and eventually recognizing the existence of Israel, right of return was still a big hurdle.
So if in some future reality Palestinians want to finally admit defeat and get on with their lives would Mets as a self proclaimed Zionist agree with paying people out who's family had previously lived on Israeli territory?
--I think it is fair to point out that Israel immigration policy over the decades has been to intentionally make the country as "white" as possible, at times being very liberal as pertains to "Jewish" identity; in an effort to strengthen it internally through demographic manipulation. And these efforts have been largely successful, although it will have to figure out a way to
This is almost poetically beautiful.
A giant and lovely shrug, akin to that of Jacob saying “If I don’t steal it someone else will.”
You openly admit that Israel’s actions in regards to settlement and right of return have been xenophobic to say the least, which by the way have been at the forefront of this entire issue and debate for decades now.
“Successful” as that policy has been for Israeli interests, I prefer to call it for what it is: a continued violation of international law which Israel has evaded to acknowledge for decades.
Time and again the international community has called for Israel to cease expansion only to have it fall on deaf ears.
The irony of course is that tie up a beautiful little xenophobic bow by justifying Israel’s actions based on the environment it has been in and conveniently point the attention to Palestinian underlying dysfunction…
First and foremost there is absolutely no justification for breaches of international law. Not for Israel not for Hamas not for any country, group, or individual on this planet. I don’t think one needs to be highly intelligent to understand this concept.
Secondly, and I hate to be the one to break this to you, but did you ever consider that perhaps Israel is the cause of that dysfunctional environment?
That you know, if Israel didn’t keep putting up settlements and outposts while infringing on Palestinian freedom and treating international law with complete disregard and impunity maybe we wouldn’t be in the position that we are in? Just a thought..
Someone should start a AITA under Government of Israel on Reddit..
The remaining tunnels have hostages in them. Israel is currently engaging in diplomacy to get the hostages back without endangering their lives by invading the remaining tunnels. Your entire analysis of the situation completely ignores the fact that Hamas took 200+ hostages, have been holding them for 1+ year, a lot of them are dead, and the remaining are being kept in tunnel
Forgive me for assuming that the hyper-Machiavellian guys in power are not actually concerned about the hostages, although you are correct that they matter from a political angle. Regardless, I stand by my view that the #1 reason they aren't going in there is because the cost would be too high militarily, and because when you have unlimited weapons coming from the US, there is little incentive to do so.
If it were actually possible for such an operation to be successful, they could always spin the story that they made a valiant effort to save the hostages, and while the evil terrorists got them, they defeated Hamas once and for all and now control all of Gaza. I find it hard to believe that Netanyahu would not view this as a win, but as I've been arguing, the slow grind is a lot less risky and has a big plus sides from the ethnic cleansing angle.
Is that really so hard to believe given stuff like this?
Not to nitpick but you are misusing the fallacy of ad hominem. I was not addressing you, only your bat-**** crazy arguments. You keep repeating how you think we operate regarding the tunnels. Again, you are misinformed and wrong. You also are stating again what you think is our modus operandi and again you are wrong. I will state this again and for the last time – we operate in
Ok bro, it's not an ad hominem, but still a dick move and not in the spirit of open-minded debate (not that you often find this trait in people who argue about this issue).
As far as the tunnels, I still don't think we're that far separated. It's just that what you call 'operating in every tunnel without hostages' I call 'expanding corridors.' If Hamas is cleared to the level that you can do engineering ops without getting attacked, it's probably a corridor at that point.
And by the way, what do you think about stuff like this?
Does the fact that the current leadership calls for what I'm saying lend any credence to my argument?
One for the Twitter gang.
Trump warns ‘all hell will break out’ if Gaza hostages aren’t released before his inauguration
Trump warns ‘all hell will break out’ if Gaza hostages aren’t released before his inauguration
Trump is a little late on that one. Btw, which family did you d donate the 1k to?
Then the meme makes no sense, like I said. And like I have been saying all along they will continue the mass murder spree bc that is the whole point of Israel and Western civilization.
I was discussing settlements and everywhere Israel will be the governing body but you love to move the goal posts to fit your warped propaganda
And I knew you wouldn't bet
there is no arbiter of the bet. you deny reality bc people like me and the Palestinians are beneath you. Israel could kill all the Palestinians in Gaza and build awful techno clubs and you would still deny it.
You always mischaractize me
Palestinians are not beneath me. I want them to have a true independent government,
But that doesn't fit your anyone who supports Israel hates Palestinians bullshit propoganda
I said luckbox can be the srbiter
Btw there is nothing bad in colonize an area where almost no one lives which is utterly underdeveloped and almost empty because it becomes livable only with great institutions and huge investments.
This is exactly what happened in the land they called "Palestine". Mark Twain visited there in 1867 and described it as "Hopeless, dreary, heart broken land". It was only after the Zionist movement that this lands infrastructure was built. Then the Arabs moved in because it was such a nice place to live. Israel would look just like Gaza or places in the West Bank if it wasn't for the Zionists. The Jews had every right to that land and would have lived side by side with the Arabs.
This is almost poetically beautiful. A giant and lovely shrug, akin to that of Jacob saying “If I don’t steal it someone else will.” You openly admit that Israel’s actions in regards to settlement and right of return have been xenophobic to say the least, which by the way have been at the forefront of this entire issue and debate for decades now. “Successful” as that poli
First off, I admit that Israel has taken actions to ensure its success, that if it did not take it would certainly be a giant failure. You are indifferent (at best) to whether Israel would be a successful, thriving nation that is a safe haven for the Jewish people; and would be completely fine if it was a failed state like Lebanon . But for good or bad, Israel does care about being functional and prospering. So there is a giant disconnect there.
Second, "International law" is completely politicized, compromised, corrupt and devoid of any first principles. It is completely worthless and only used to pursue political ends. International law has been completely hijacked by bad actors with no liberal values, and who cynically use it to pursue their political ends. Any nations that want to participate in this farce, they are free too, but they have no moral authority as far as I am concerned.
You realize Putin has an arrest warrant with the ICC, has visited at least one ICC member nation (Mongolia) which would never even think of arresting him, and no one cares. No one (including you) cares one whit for "international law" except when it happens to align with something you do actually care about; in this case supporting the Palestinian resistance.
As far as the West Bank, for good or bad Israel has cynically decided they dont have a partner to work with for peace and maybe never will; so they are unilaterally working towards a resolution that meets their security needs, even with a belligerent Palestinian population next door.
If at some point in the future the Palestinians decided to accept Israel and make peace, I would expect an Israel govt to accommodate this, although demanding the 1967 borders given all that has happened since is not going to happen.
But at this point Gaza is governed by a terrorist gang at war with Israel that is holding 100+ Israeli's hostage, and the rest of the world seems indifferent towards this, so talking about a theoretical 2 state solution as anything but a distant future dream is complete nonsense.
If nations like Norway and Spain want a Palestinian state, then step 1 is getting the Israeli hostages back and getting rid of Hamas. But those nations have no interest in working towards this because they are not serious. They are just cynically using this situation to virtue signal for their own political ends.
Victor and Mets, please stop characterizing one another and just address the content of arguments. Thanks 😀
Trump warns ‘all hell will break out’ if Gaza hostages aren’t released before his inauguration
The Abraham accords is his baby and he is not gonna let the "Palestinians" ruin it for him. Normalized business relationships with Israel and it's Arab neighbors would be a fantastic thing for the world.
Well, as Jack Kennedy noticed, it's useless to argue who has the fairer claim. The fact is that the Israelis have the power, over a certain part of the territory, but they don't quite know what to do with that power -- they can't formally annexe the West Bank for fear of giving voting rights to the Arabs or else denying those rights and admitting that they run an apartheid regi
Israel could never give up control of the West Bank because it sits on higher ground.
The West Bank is a big place. And the security concerns mostly involve a narrow strip of high land overlooking Israel's main population centers and industrial capacity.
With good faith on both sides, there should be a way to navigate Israel's security concerns and still provide for a viable Palestinian sate. But insisting on the 1949 lines when you have never shown the slightest will or ability to control belligerence against Israel is just bad faith. And given the current PA position is bad faith demands, on top of Hamas who doesn't even recognize Israel has a right to exist at all, there is nothing to work with.
And outside nations, whether they be European or Arab or whoever, who refuse to even acknowledge this reality and demand the pre 1967 borders are operating in bad faith themselves, and will not be humored.
