Israel/Palestine thread

I used to think this. and its a nice thought in a vacuum. but the fact is that Israel and all of its leaders and all of its supporters equate Jewishness with Israel at least to some extent, and usually to a large extent. just read rafki's posts. and hes comparatively on the left. beyond that, nearly every Jewish institution in the world, and certainly even more those with actual resources and influence, are supporters of Israel.

ofc I still dont think there is anything inherent in Judaism that creates this situation but maybe that is due to my pinko commie hippy liberal core that I havent shedded. but from a material, facts on the ground perspective, I agree with the pro-Israel people in this thread that Jewishness and Israel are considerably intertwined.

microbet, you are more wrong than usual today

what's going on

hard to answer the part about Muslims and Europe unless you give me a waiver for moderation on that.

it's all backward, we had no Muslims around till recently in our countries

But whaddabout Victor's terrible posting?

Mods are asleep, bro. You can be as racist as you like now.

you supported a genocide in Gaza and the destruction of Ukraine. maybe you if you read my posts you would realize why you are on the wrong side of everything.

They're doing this as a strategy when it serves their argument and then when other people do it back they say it's antisemitic. Well, it is antisemitic and people like metsnfins are reaping what they've sown.

Sure, but what about the prison camps in North Korea?

I agree but they are making it a reality

I dunno. they sound bad. I heard they force the prisoners to work dangerous jobs like meatpacking and firefighting. sounds pretty grim. oh wait.

They even attack Jewish people who don't fall in line as not being real Jews.

https://kol-barama.co.il/item/%D7%97%D7%...

I dont speak Hebrew but maybe Blue would be so kind as to verify if this google translate from Israeli media is correct.

The majority of the world regards Israel as THE Jewish state. This includes Zionists and those who view Israel as an illegitimate settler state.

Liberals. Especially liberal Jews, may object to this, but the other 95% of the world doesn’t care

Israel becoming the Jewish state was pretty much inevitable following the decision of western nations to deal with the Jewish question by supporting emigration to Israel, and perhaps more importantly the Arab world responding with collective punishment against the Jewish diaspora in the MENA.

Again, you can not be happy with this reality, but that doesn’t make it not demonstrably true, for good or bad.

Does every group which was ever reviled and oppressed get their own state? If so, what about those people already living in that place?

I must have missed that episode of Oprah when she was like "You get a state! You get a state! You get a state!..." while pointing to various ethnic groups.

I agree it happens as you describe. I think people see Israel as a Jewish nation just not as a monolith for the Jewish faith. Maybe I am projecting a nuance normal people don’t have.

I think you also have a very western centric view. Less than 10% of the people in the world are Westerners, and for those that aren't I dont think much of a distinction is made.

I used to play a game on a euro server and the clan was very diverse, including an Israeli. The Dutch thought Israel was a fascist country even then, but there was never mention of Judaism.

Limited anecdotal evidence for sure but more exposure than your average westerner

People don't know what the capital of their own country is or whether Africa is a country or a continent and most people have either no idea or completely mistaken ideas of what Judiasm is/Jews are. Hell, lots of misconceptions have been shared in this thread.

You have a very different perception of “Westerner” than I do if Netherlands isn’t part of this group.

Since when did being low information ever stop people from having a strong opinion and willing to kill/die for those low information beliefs.

The people who I know who don't like Israel also don't like Jews. I've worked many years in the resort business and unfortunately Jewish people get a bad wrap deserved or not. It seems to me there is a direct correlation between anti semitism and the hatred toward Israel. If Israel happened to be a Christian nation the world would rally around them.

I think the other anti Israel people are mostly virtue signaling. It's as if they look up into the sky for the LIBat signal to tell them what to be outraged about.

I think Israel is clearly a nation for the Jews. The idea that people aren't equating the two is simply not correct. It is the chosen land and they are the chosen people. I think some people are just jealous.

I was saying that I have been exposed to some non westerner opinions

edit: Oh, I see you were calling Netherlands as westerner, got it.

Picketing "doesn't like Israel" into anti-Semites and virtue signalers is an incredibly narrow view of a fairly broad group. Israeli Intelligence has been a meme since pre internet days.

If Israel were a Christian nation pretty sure many would call it a medieval style crusade and have many (all?) of the same issues.

I think you are underestimating how much the fact that it is Jews and this is taking part in the "Holy Land" matters to Arabs,* and how much they have leveraged their control over the worlds energy supply to make sure it matters to the rest of the world too.

You can contrast some of the stuff going on in Africa, China, and India and relative indifference of the Ummah and western left to illustrate this discrepancy. It is quite possible a "Christian crusade" into the Holy Land would invoke a similar response from Arabs. But it is not clear if the visceral disgust response would be as strong or if they would be able to leverage so much of the rest of the world into caring without the Jewish element.

*In truth it is really Arab leadership cynically using this to control the people, but it obviously wouldn't work as well without these dynamics

Not what happened in Lebanon.

I don't believe you. Why would someone be against Israel other than they are anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist, anti-racist etc. And such people would never hate people for their ethnicity or religion for that same reason. Humanitarians are not anti Semites.

Actual antisemites are generally racist across the board. But the hardcore racist antisemites like and admire Israel because Israel is doing what they want to do, building an ethno state on their version of demographic purity. They don't like Jews but they like Israel and often support Israel because they want to normalize the racial hatred and racial realism embodied by Israel.

Looks like you've got Elon Musk disease, thinking everyone in the world except you are just empty NPCs waiting to be filled with some bits of programmed responses.

It's amazing to me that people can just totally rule out the idea that someone in the U.S. who pays taxes doesn't want their money going into an ethnic cleansing project which also happens to inflame world tensions in the nuclear era. How much money has Israel really cost us over the years when you consider the oil embargo, wars, diplomatic costs etc. It's uncalculatable. I don't think apartheid or ethnic cleansing or concentration camps are anything but evil and I don't want my country supporting it.

Now that you've spoken of chosen people and chosen land I feel stupid for having responded to you at all. Good strategy putting that at the end.

Saying Israel is a nation for the Jews is no different than saying Germany is a nation for the Aryans or that the U.S. is a white Christian Nation. Instead of putting a label on it such as racism or hatred, I will just point out the historical toxicity of such sentiments. It leads to suffering and death not to mention the trend last century was it doesn't deliver the racial purity it premises.