Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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34719 Replies
If Hamas doesn't have any more live hostages to exchange, Israel should stop giving them prisoners. I truly don't understand what Israel gains by liberating terrorists in exchange for dead bodies.
did you just wake up after a week?
Israel didnt give up any of their hostages after Hamas released the last batch.
your sentiment that Israel shouldnt follow the rules and should continue to be a thoroughly dishonest country is the prevailing view so its fine.
If Hamas doesn't have any more live hostages to exchange, Israel should stop giving them prisoners. I truly don't understand what Israel gains by liberating terrorists in exchange for dead bodies.
Hamas has recently broadcast torturing of 2 live hostages, by bringing them to the hostage release humiliation ceremonies where other live hostages were released. So there is at least 2 live hostages.
And the so called leftists in this forum are completely indifferent of such behavior, because most of their so called humanism is just a facade for their antisemitism.
As far as what Israel gains from liberating terrorists for dead bodies. It appears to just be a cultural Jewish behavior that their Muslim Arab enemies callously take advantage of to the best of their abilities, which the rest of the world seems mostly indifferent towards, for various reasons.
The funny thing is the first part of this statement is directionally correct. But then the antisemitism glitch kicks in, and the logical extension is just to attack Jews.
In the year 2024 if one were to criticize fundamentalist religious oriented states that misbehave, there are a tremendous number of examples, almost all of them Muslim (including Gaza FWIW). But because Trolly is an antisemite and most of these other nations are antisemitic too, following the enemy of my enemy is my friend pri
Israel was created artificially, by the abrupt resettlement of people from other continents, with violence and ethnic cleansing, within living memory. This might have passed for normal a century earlier at the height of imperialism, and of course Zionism is a product of 19th-century ethno-nationalism ('Each ethnic group should live only in its own spot and no one else should live there') and imperialism ('The natives don't count'), but it came to fruition just when those ideas were going dramatically out of style. So it's not quite like any old country and it's obviously a controversial matter.
Hamas has recently broadcast torturing of 2 live hostages, by bringing them to the hostage release humiliation ceremonies where other live hostages were released. So there is at least 2 live hostages.
And the so called leftists in this forum are completely indifferent of such behavior, because most of their so called humanism is just a facade for their antisemitism.
As far as what Israel gains from liberating terrorists for dead bodies. It appears to just be a cultural Jewish behavior that t
lol at torturing. I could show you pictures of actual torture.
anyway, they brought those guys to try to pressure Israel to continue the ceasefire. it didnt work and Israel immediately withheld the hundreds of innocent hostages and political prisoners that they were supposed to release in exchange for the IDF soldiers. my guess is that Hamas knew that the duplicitous Israeli government intended to renege on the deal and this was a last ditch attempt to release people who have actually suffered torture.
now there is a good chance those men will die in captivity. thats certainly the hope of the Israeli government and many of its supporters.
You could, but you won’t because you’re afraid of being banned by the mods who won’t ban you. Yeah we’ve heard it before lol.
Well, yeah. Generally a lot of criticisms of Israel are valid in a vacuum. But because the person making the criticism normally has blatant ulterior motives and are indifferent towards much worse behavior by the people trying to destroy Israel, they both invalidate their own position and cause a defense mechanism, that can be exploited by bad actors.
Because of such cynical bad faith, most of the selective criticism of Israel is actively making things worse.
I still don't get the bad faith argument. It's not like we're talking about Israel and then hopping on a flight to Pakistan to go beat up some Christians. That would make a criticism of Israel in bad faith. Otherwise it seem like any criticism of Israel is in bad faith, which is categorically not true. Or maybe there has to be some nebulous amount of criticism towards unspecified other countries before a criticism towards Israel would count, but no one seems to suggest any criteria for assessing that.
Israel was created artificially, by the abrupt resettlement of people from other continents, with violence and ethnic cleansing, within living memory. This might have passed for normal a century earlier at the height of imperialism, and of course Zionism is a product of 19th-century ethno-nationalism ('Each ethnic group should live only in its own spot and no one else should live there') and imperialism ('The natives don't count'), but it came to fruition just when those ideas were going dramati
Fair enough. But the response of the Arab world towards this was to persecute and collectively punish their Jewish minorities, till most left under various forms of coercion. And the response of the rest of the world to this was indifference.
So at this point, I would say things more or less evened out (more Jews actually relocated and MUCH more property was stolen, but lets not quibble), and no one really has any moral high ground. And the priority should be facilitating Palestinians moving on, like the millions upon millions of other refugees that were forced to relocate and move on under various forms of coercion in the aftermath of the great wars of the 20th century.
And the rest of the world deciding instead to stick the Palestinians in refugee camps on the border of Israel in perpetuity, and incentivize extremely dysfunctional antisocial behavior has gone about as well as one would expect.
Cut off all funding to Ukraine. Cut the US civilians a bigger check. Maybe send a few more MOAB's Israel's way. Let the Europeans pay for the war if they are so afraid of Russia.
This is why I say Israel is ultimately doomed. A portion of the US population that traditionally had been vehemently Russia bad, Russia die, have been flipped to "well what's Putin supposed to do, his hands were tied." Israel has a strong propaganda wing but eventually it's going to be why the hell are we sending our money and weapons over there and just causing more problems. As strong as Israel is they're still a tiny minority surrounded by enemies and one day some allies they depend on are going to leave them hanging out to dry.
Did you guys see the video Trump posted on social for his vision of Gaza? lol.
I found that in pretty (and by that I mean very) poor taste. Politicians seem to be getting more lowbrow the past few years.
His Dear Leader of Turkmenistan style golden statue of himself though did kinda make me chuckle.
https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/photo/...
israel has an insurance policy against a hostile usa administration, which goes along the lines of 'if you dont continue to help us prevent holocaust 2.0 then this entire region and all the oil under it might turn radioactive for the next 5000 years'
probably wont come to that though in our lifetimes, no one anywhere near the levers of power is as naive as the pro hamas people itt and elsewhere
I still don't get the bad faith argument. It's not like we're talking about Israel and then hopping on a flight to Pakistan to go beat up some Christians. That would make a criticism of Israel in bad faith. Otherwise it seem like any criticism of Israel is in bad faith, which is categorically not true. Or maybe there has to be some nebulous amount of criticism towards unspecified other countries before a criticism towards Israel would count, but no one seems to suggest any criteria for assessing
Well, my main argument is that the world has provided extremely perverse incentive structures. And Israel (and Palestinians) actions are more or less rational responses to the incentive structures.
So hypercriticism of Israel while ignoring all the incentive structure problems is going about as well as one would expect. Through its incentive structures, the world has convinced the Palestinians that if they hold out and refuse to make peace long enough, through some unseen mechanism they will eventually be able to destroy Israel. And this is the plan the Palestinian leadership has roughly followed the last 80 years, subsidized by the world.
So step 1 in any resolution is the world making it very clear this is not an option, and the world isn't going to subsidize such efforts moving forward. And then once this happens, we can work towards actual productive measures, which could and should include valid criticism of Israel's actions.
This is why I say Israel is ultimately doomed. A portion of the US population that traditionally had been vehemently Russia bad, Russia die, have been flipped to "well what's Putin supposed to do, his hands were tied." Israel has a strong propaganda wing but eventually it's going to be why the hell are we sending our money and weapons over there and just causing more problems. As strong as Israel is they're still a tiny minority surrounded by enemies and one day some allies they depend on are go
There are very real and tangible reasons we send our money over there. There’s a reason Israel has strong bipartisan support and I don’t think you’re dumb enough to believe that rich Jews are the only ones trying to buy politicians.
Insinuating that the underlying reason the US supports Israel is because of propaganda is just ignorant.
Idk about you but I’m glad we’re allied with the tiny nation who just single handedly dismantled our enemies in the region.
Maybe you’re more about allying with dysfunctional nations like North Korea or Iran. Not really sure.
And if you do earnestly believe Palestinians should "resist" and reconquer Israel, that is fine. But also understand that Israel has no obligation to let them. So if your ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel, and you think a certain action of Israel would work towards this end; then good chance the Israeli govt agrees with this assessment, which is why they aren't going to do it, no matter what bad faith arguments you make why they should do so.
This is why I say Israel is ultimately doomed. A portion of the US population that traditionally had been vehemently Russia bad, Russia die, have been flipped to "well what's Putin supposed to do, his hands were tied." Israel has a strong propaganda wing but eventually it's going to be why the hell are we sending our money and weapons over there and just causing more problems. As strong as Israel is they're still a tiny minority surrounded by enemies and one day some allies they depend on are go
This is the logic the Palestinian resistance movement uses. That they need to just hold out long enough and things will turn in their favor. And this also explains why Israel is operating wish such "inhumane" urgency right now, while they at least still have the support of the US.
israel has an insurance policy against a hostile usa administration, which goes along the lines of 'if you dont continue to help us prevent holocaust 2.0 then this entire region and all the oil under it might turn radioactive for the next 5000 years'
probably wont come to that though in our lifetimes, no one anywhere near the levers of power is as naive as the pro hamas people itt and elsewhere
I'm guessing within our grandchildren's lives.
This is the logic the Palestinian resistance movement uses. That they need to just hold out long enough and things will turn in their favor. And this also explains why Israel is operating wish such "inhumane" urgency right now, while they at least still have the support of the US.
My opinion hasn't changed in over a year now. I wish the Palestinians would just admit defeat and move on with life. Imagine what Gaza could be like now if the funds and resources used to build the tunnel network was instead invested in their society.
I know it sucks to admit defeat to who you have been taught is your mortal enemy and living on your family's land but life would just be so much better.
At the same time I can't blame them for wanting to jihad, it's just how our brains work.
There are very real and tangible reasons we send our money over there. There’s a reason Israel has strong bipartisan support and I don’t think you’re dumb enough to believe that rich Jews are the only ones trying to buy politicians.
Insinuating that the underlying reason the US supports Israel is because of propaganda is just ignorant.
Idk about you but I’m glad we’re allied with the tiny nation who just single handedly dismantled our enemies in the region.
Maybe you’re more about allying wit
Explain how the recent ethnic cleansing of 40,000 northern West Bank residents is in our national interest.
israel has an insurance policy against a hostile usa administration, which goes along the lines of 'if you dont continue to help us prevent holocaust 2.0 then this entire region and all the oil under it might turn radioactive for the next 5000 years'
Seems like the kind of thing the mafia would say, if they had nuclear weapons.
can you imagine if an Israeli Jew was returned in that condition? you guys would never shut up about it.
and yes, this is mild compared to the horror shows we have seen from the Israeli torture chambers. it was just the first one I came across after about 3 sec of scrolling.
My opinion hasn't changed in over a year now. I wish the Palestinians would just admit defeat and move on with life. Imagine what Gaza could be like now if the funds and resources used to build the tunnel network was instead invested in their society.
I know it sucks to admit defeat to who you have been taught is your mortal enemy and living on your family's land but life would just be so much better.
At the same time I can't blame them for wanting to jihad, it's just how our brains work.
you gotta realize that bolded was not allowed by Israel due to the blockade. they had strict limits on construction equipment and extremely tight restrictions on the border.
There are very real and tangible reasons we send our money over there. There’s a reason Israel has strong bipartisan support and I don’t think you’re dumb enough to believe that rich Jews are the only ones trying to buy politicians.
Insinuating that the underlying reason the US supports Israel is because of propaganda is just ignorant.
Idk about you but I’m glad we’re allied with the tiny nation who just single handedly dismantled our enemies in the region.
Maybe you’re more about allying wit
As USAID and American soft power continues to be decimated to the cheering drones and America begins to no longer be able to strong arm other countries into favorable trade deals you have to imagine the economy will slow down. When that happens it shouldn't be too hard for (according to Dunyain) Qatar and Co to shift popular opinion to focus on the pittance of money the US gives to Israel. It doesn't take much. I mean for god's sake we've currently got Republicans white knighting for Russia.
Israel isn't stupid. They'll have other allies lined up but it's not going to be indefinite as both war and misinformation technology continues to become better, cheaper and more available.
As Chez has said, a political solution is the only long term answer but the jihadists hold a lot of cards.
can you imagine if an Israeli Jew was returned in that condition? you guys would never shut up about it.
and yes, this is mild compared to the horror shows we have seen from the Israeli torture chambers. it was just the first one I came across after about 3 sec of scrolling.
Some of the Israelis have been returned dead. As always, it should be unclear whether you’re trolling or not but we all know you’re serious.
Not condoning torture, but it’s also unclear what that guy did. I tried google searching him but nothing shows up. Do you have a source beyond a cropped image of a tweet?
