GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

65 (!) and 53, but who's counting when we're bashing everyone?

Wade was the main focus of the Celtics, while they laughed at Lebron... 😆

Playoffs vs Celtics

2010 WADE............. 33 on 56%
2010 LEBRON......... 27 on 45% (-500 favorite)

2011 WADE............. 30 on 53%
2011 LEBRON......... 28 on 47%

2008 LEBRON......... 27 on 35% (5.3 TO's)

So again, Wade was the main focus of the Celtics that they had no answer for, while they had Lebron bottled up from years ago... Lebron needed to watch Wade for a year to learn how to perform under pressure.

And the defensive attention that Lebron gets by sharing the scoring load equally with other sidekicks like AD or Kyrie doesn't compare to guys that carried the scoring load, and therefore faced max defensive attention (Curry, MJ, Duncan, Bird and Kobe).. The ability to carry the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals allowed them to win with less star help, such as secondary producers like Klay or Pippen instead of franchise guys like AD, Luka and Wade.., Meanwhile, filling out the roster with defenders and key role players was also a breeze because they didn't need a bunch of stars like Lebron does.

Again, we were talking about the years they averaged their peak ppg, which was 2019 and 2020 for Harden - he only won 45-50 game despite havin crazy help with 3 "pippens" that averaged 16-17 ppg (CP3, EGordo and Capela)... MJ 3-peated with less.

By having so much scoring help, Harden faced zero defensive attention compared to Jordan, while also enjoying today's beginner format that every coach and player says MJ would average 50 ppg in..... So Harden's 36 ppg is a joke in today's beginner format considering everyone says MJ would get 50...

Jordan's 37.1 ppg was the 2nd player ever to get 3000 points in a season, and he did this while being the 1st guy to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.. So there is no comparison between Harden and Jordan, or even Kobe or Iverson for that matter, who averaged comparable ppg in much tougher formats without having to go 1-on-1 in a child-like ball-dominant fashion and desecrate the game the way Harden did.

^^^ No consistent criteria, and no proof or rationale for why that stuff is top 10 caliber.

Otoh, my top 10 has uniform criteria, such as carrying the scoring load - carrying the scoring load allows winning with less stars, which allows room for more defensive help, so it's an extremely valuable criteria.. Accordingly, everyone in my top 10 from the 3-pointer era carried the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals of a title run (MJ, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic)... However, carrying the scoring load is only required for players from the 3-pointer era, since offensive dominance is required to be MVP-caliber - 45 of 45 MVP's since 1980 were dominant offensively... Otoh, the 2-pointer eras could leverage the lack of spacing to get defenders MVP awards and equal dominance with offensive players... So carrying the scoring load didn't matter back then and isn't required of the 2-point era guys in my top 10 (Russell, Wilt, Kareem).

In addition to carrying the scoring load, my top 10 criteria also includes producing great chemistry and teams, which only highly-assisted skillsets do, since high-scorers with low-assisted rates (ball-dominators) produce low team assists by turning everyone into spot-up shooters (lowering everyone's assists and increasing their assisted rate).

Finally, in addition to carrying the scoring load and producing great chemistry & teams, my top 10 criteria includes winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.. Since this generally requires carrying the scoring load, the 2-pointer era guys don't need to fulfill it.

This encompasses a viable and vetted top 10 criteria where high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) are excluded by virtue of failing all criteria: 1) producing great chemistry and teams (they impose spot-up roles and were never 1st option for dynasties or dominant champions).... 2) carrying scoring load (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams).... 3) winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player (they can't win with normal rosters because they can't carry scoring load and have a weak chemistry skillset).
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Thread Cliffs

By virtue of having the highly-assisted and elite off-ball skillsets required to run the ball movement systems of every modern dynasty (3 in 5) and dominant title run (4 losses max), the best off-ball players ever populate the top 10, i.e. a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters ever, such as MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic..

I think he still sneaks in.

1) LeBron
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Shaq
5) Jordan

Actually I take that back. Excellent post.

18 Harden ran into the GOAT team. The only reason that team wouldn't beat the 96-98 Bulls is because of Pippen defending Harden.

Imagine how many chips Hakeem has if he had Pippen in those years. Wow. No team would score on them. They would dismantle the Pippen-less Bulls.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about and constantly throwing **** against the wall.

Chris Paul was only on the team for two years, like I posted. Plz don't repeat your lies yet again. Be willing to be wrong for once.

Ah yes, Allen Iverson was definitely not ball dominant and def wasn't a 1 on 1 player.

Wtf?

More bullshit against the wall. (Maybe the most egregious so far.)

Does give me the opportunity to post the infamous cooking of your boy tho.

Didn’t you say in this era mj would score like 50 because it’s much easier to?
But it only applies to mj ?

And you had the audacity to cite “context matters”….

Well at least it’s obvious this entire thread now think you are the least reliable analyst there is out here…

After years of hard work and thousands of hours of posting, Fallguy has managed to push Jordan out of the top 10. I guess that's something.

We don't have to take your word for it because Pippen told Rachel Nichols about his fit with Hakeem.

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he lacked sufficient shooting and can't fit alongside a Hakeem or any big man... He literally compared himself to a bad Westbrick fit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_...

So think about how wrong you are (again).. Pippen cannot play alongside a big man, so MJ is the only guy he could win with since the 90's was a big man era.

There's levels:

Harden...... 10-15% assisted rate... Most ball-dominance ever
Iverson...... 25-45% assisted rate... occasionally ball-dominant
Jordan........ 45-50% assisted rate... not ball-dominant

Anyone who watched Iverson knows that he ran off a TON of screens - he was like a demon running on that baseline, while Harden literally never came off a single screen - Harden's style of consistently monopolizing entire shot clocks was new and unique to Harden until Luka came along.

So Jordan only repeats then, but actually he would still 3-peat because those Rockets had three Pippen's with 16-17 ppg, and Jordan only needs 1.

Harden simply underachieved massively with those squads compared to Jordan.... And it's because Harden has the worst brand of ball ever - only Harden and Luka have worse ball-dominance than Lebron.. Harden's style desecrated the game

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Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:

Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:

But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:

Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:

But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:

The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas and Rod Strickland.. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen

Again, learn to think for yourself and stop repeating lies you heard on TV.. Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's top scorer and couldn't defend quick ball-handlers (see previous post).

Accordingly, Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Isiah, and Payton (Gm 3 and Gm 5), and also Rod Strickland or Tim Hardaway.. The YouTube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" documents defensive wizardry of NBA players and especially Jordan - the channel only covers defense.

The only top guys that Pippen was the primary defender on was Penny in 1996 and Glen Rice on 2 occasions - they torched and outplayed Pippen all 3 times.

So again, are you capable of having your own thoughts and not repeating lies and ignorant stuff you hear om TV?

Jordan got equal or more DPOY votes for 7 of 9 seasons alongside Pippen and rookie Pippen learned from the DPOY in 88'..

Here's the reality - Pippen has zero examples of locking anyone up as the primary defender and cannot guard quick ball-handlers so the idea that he would guard Harden is the height of delusion and ignorance... He was mostly outscored in his SF matchups in his career and his defense is vastly overrated.. The media simply got in a habit of talking about Pippen,'s defense because they couldn't compliment his offense.

Harden's burden was much less (only 31% of team points) because he had far more scoring help to take defensive attention away and help his efficiency..

But the biggest issue is style of play.. Harden played the worst basketball that anyone ever played, while Jordan played an off-ball brand that allowed development of teammates, chemistry and dynasties... Imagine getting 37 ppg off-ball - it's the best anyone ever played.

In addition to greater burden and superior style of play, 87' Jordan became the first player to get 200 steals and 100 blocks, while being the 2nd player to get 3000 points.. So there's no comparison with Harden (burden, style of play, defense)... Harden also has zero post game and zero off-ball, so he's a bad scorer compared to Jordan - everyone is.

It's been settled.

Every dominant title run or dynasty used ball movement systems that required elite off-ball players at 1st option.

Since off-ball players were required for every great team, the best off-ball players in history are ahead of the best ball-dominators, who can't run the ball movement systems required for a great team.. Consequently, they produce bad teams and are horrific losers by comparison... The inability to win at a viable frequency or with normal rosters of 1 franchise player puts all ball-dominators out of the top 10.

In addition to being unable to run the ball movement systems required of great teams, ball-dominators impose spot-up roles.. This bad chemistry coupled with an inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars and hinders GM's from adding defensive help.. These factors of bad chemistry and inability to carry scoring load (or add defenders) prevents ball-dominators from winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.

So regardless of the guys you put in your top 10, just make sure there aren't any ball-dominators in there.

Harden scored more points per 100 possessions and at better efficiency. These are facts.

The fact MJ scored a larger percentage of his team points is actually a bad thing for MJ. Proving MJ doesn't make his team better. Harden's better efficiency giving his team mates more opportunities as well (more shots to go around).

None of this is even slightly relevant to the statement. Never change.

Just when you think FG has reached peak FG he brings out a clip of MJ's defense in an All Star game as his proof. Amazing.

Maybe peak FG is him bragging about MJ defending Payton for 2 of the 6 games in the Finals, and... check notes... those 2 games are 2 of the top 3 games Payton played in the 6 game series.

Didn’t you say in this era mj would score like 50 because it’s much easier to?
But it only applies to mj ?

And you had the audacity to cite “context matters”….

Well at least it’s obvious this entire thread now think you are the least reliable analyst there is out here…

I also like the clip of Jordan playing such great defense on Grant that Horace has to step up to cut off the open lane slowing Grant down. Then Grant still makes the shot, and Jordan was lucky not to be called for a foul.