Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

NATO intervening doesn’t mean it belong to nato .
It could just be a deterrent to prevent Putin invading again.
( and you would need a strong deterrent like that because we all know Putin will just break any deal he will make eventually .)

And even that he would never agree …
Putin wants Ukraine cold , and he will get it eventually .

Ps: u never answer what is so special about Ukraine joining nato while Russia already have 3 border countries already in nato .
A border is a border ain’t it ?
That nato stuff is such a bs talking point ….

A fascist regime with a history of brutal occupations of bordering countries invades its peaceful neighbor.

Three years pass. Over these years, two posters in the forum's threads that discuss this war have written several thousand posts between them to explain that they simply hate fascism so much that they have no choice but to support the fascist regime in this conflict. Defending yourself from a fascist invasion is supposedly very aggressive and something only very evil countries do.

Then they state that of course they don't support the fascist regime, this is just insulting hyperbole made by evil bootlickers. They just happen to agree with everything the fascist regime says. This distinction also shows why anyone who disagrees is actually a fascist.

I'm not saying this discussion is stupid enough to make me lose all faith in humanity, but it is stupid enough see at least a tiny bit of silver lining to a nuclear extinction event.

The deterrent is abiding by the negotiated terms. That's just the way it is when you lose. I thought posters in this forum were older. You sound like a zoomer who doesn't get that losing means something. Grow up.

Furthermore, Russia abided by the terms of the Minsk accords. Ukraine broke them and it was later exposed that the accords were never entered into in good faith, that the accords were just a stalling tactic to prepare for war. It's time to face the facts. Russia has the victory AND the credibility.

He appears to want Ukraine to be neutral. Russia's actions in this era have always been consistent with what they have said. I find this position reasonable. I think the U.S. position, acting like some kind of frenemy upon the dissolution of the Soviet Union, saying great now we can be friends while steadily encroaching with a hostile military alliance, is in the wrong especially since Russia is a legit nuclear power. We could give them a buffer state and not threaten them. We are just trying to feed our military complex and justify these insane budgets. This is all spawned by U.S. corruption.

I've answered that like 3 times. For a BS talking point it sure does have a long and consistent significance over the past 30 years. From the breakup of the Soviet Union itself all the way to now, NATO expansion has been a major point of contention. What you are supposing, that it's some kind of red herring long con, is something no expert on Russia says that I've ever heard, not even the propagandists say this is a fake concern because they would be laughed at in their circles. The official position, so that you can be consistent with your own side, is that we don't care about Russia's concerns only the free choices made by sovereign countries (in this case ones we have given tens of billions of dollars with of weapons lol). That line, your side's line, is less absurd you should stick with it.

I don't support Trump or Putin. But I do agree with them on certain points with which you (more importantly the masses like you) disagree. What has really happened here, which you cannot accept, is that the masses in the U.S. have been led astray with lies which were propagated by elites to serve their greedy ends. Because those lies came from sources with accumulated credibility, they seem to be unshakably rooted in your mind. This allows Trump and Putin the opportunity to weaponize the truth.

We can see this in so many places if we focus in on any particular point of contention. If we do that it will follow a pattern. I will say it is one way. You will say no it is what Rachel Maddow said. If we pull at the threads and perhaps follow the issue into a court or a document which has to be mindful of a court, you will see every time that I am correct. But that will still not change your mind. Your gullibility, meaning the gullibility of the masses like you, is at the heart of this problem. This problem could be solved if you would entertain the idea that elites with billions of dollars at stake might lie to you. From there you have to think for yourself and use your reasoning skills to asses the truth value of any particular point or premise. I think the reason you refuse to do this is because you refuse to open yourself up to the possibility that you have been a sucker.

I don't know what is different between you and I where I can admit where I've been a sucker and you can't. I knocked on at least 1,000 doors for Obama in 08. I was a sucker for doing so. Had I just accepted who his donors were and the implications of that I would have been able see Obama for who he was. And I even chastised people for not being sufficiently excited about Obama. I made a mistake. I was taken in by his past associations so much that I didn't even realize that the way he threw his pastor under the bus, the man who gave him his credibility, was proof positive that he was a POS. Is it that most people have egos that are too fragile to admit that they were taken in by anyone? Do most people have some notion of infallibility woven into their identity and I don't? I don't know why they can't, but I know if people like you could admit you were wrong the world would be a much safer and more sustainable place.

You absolutely support Putin, Pinocciovich.

I have no motive to support Putin or Russia. Neither the man or the state supports my economic or social ideologies. I'm in near total agreement with the highest credentialed U.S. scholars on Russia, most of whom spent their careers being adversarial to Russia.

Accept that you've been snookered and be better going forward.

I bet you'd blow him outa sheer adulation.

Yet you still do.

I read several of your messages, you rely on reliable sources in your ideology, that's good, but since you're so behind your position, it looks somehow one-sided. It would be easier to analyze the constitution and laws of Ukraine yourself and everything would become clear (the whole world understands it, but not your sources).

If we assume that elections will be held now, are you sure that Ukraine needs presidential elections at all now? If you think logically, taking these figures (from open sources):
- the population of Ukraine is now about 33 million people
- about 3.7 million people are refugees/those who left the country (since 2022)
- 4.9 million people are internally displaced persons
- about 1 million military personnel (of which about 0.4 million are involved in hostilities)
- 1/3 of the territory is occupied
- active hostilities are underway in five regions
- drone attacks are now being carried out deep into the country every day, from 50 to 200 pieces per day, rocket attacks.

Let's hold elections, choose a President, it's all easy to organize both inside the country and for those who left, the war will "stop", there are enough extra funds for this. Sources said that everything will be legitimate, like the elections that were organized in the Kherson and Zaporizhia regions or Donetsk / Luhansk / Crimea.

I am simply surprised that only one country is shouting about elections, because it is not customary there for “great people” to communicate on equal terms with an “actor”.

If you want, you can quickly organize a real "democracy", as an example. And the turnout of people will be 90-95%, better than in peacetime.

No. I support the majority, the working class. In that effort I try to find the truth. I realize we are in a class war and can see, to some degree, what the elites are trying to do here. Honestly they don't even cover it up very well. Right now you can dig up pre 2022 speeches and clips of a variety of NGOs and thinktanks and they explicitly say how they are centering Ukraine in the effort to weaken Russia and separate Russia from Europe. That's what this is about, selling gas. They don't talk about Ukrainian democracy, which is something to feed the clapping seals. Their strategy depends totally on you (meaning you types of person) totally falling asleep and not digging one centimeter into their bs. And you oblige them and I can't figure out why. I guess deep down you think what is good for them is good for you. That is not true.

Zelensky should probably step down in favor of some interim government, no elections. I say should and probably because there are no probably right answers here. What we know is that Ukraine has lost the war and that continuing it will only bring more casualties and more time and money to rebuild the place. Zelensky is saying a lot of things that aren't true. He is grasping tightly onto power, possibly because he thinks he is a dead man without that power. He is playing up Europe as means to keep the war going which is totally impractical. He bought in too hard on that American bs. He went all in and lost and he can't deal with it. The new phase in this needs to get rid of this guy. How exactly to do it I can't say for sure. Elections are impractical, so some other way.

Poker is an intellectual game, players only perceive facts. Working class, elites - I didn't know that the world is now divided according to the Marxist view and we live/are guided by these rules. Are you looking for the truth? Isn't it true that the world is divided into countries and international laws apply in it? Reality - Russian troops are conducting active hostilities on the territory of sovereign Ukraine against its population (troops and civilians). What law allows this? What basis gives the right to this? It is convenient to divide the whole world into classes, where the working class is always the victim. By doing this, you are running away from answering about your specific sympathies/views. Although you actively participate in the discussed topics where specifics are needed

I don't understand at all why Zelensky should leave: did international countries express distrust in him, did internal Ukrainian institutions express distrust, or did the people of Ukraine themselves? No. So far, I know of one person who wants this and has stated it publicly. Suppose there is a new President, an interim government - what will that change? Will there be peace on terms that are more acceptable to Russia? This definitely won't happen. You talk about Zelensky as if only he himself decides the fate of Ukraine (this is the case in Russia, where everything depends on one person today), but Ukraine has its PEOPLE, who have proven by deed that it is with them that the fate of Ukraine should be decided. Ukrainians will fight with their bare hands, but they will not allow Russia's revenge. Europe has seen Russia's ambitions and how everything can end if they do not counteract this and are not ready. You say Ukraine has lost - nothing is over yet, the people of Ukraine understand this and do not stop the fight.

every day I watch multiple videos of people indeed doing this exact thing. they fight with their bare hands and every bit of strength in their body and lungs to avoid getting shipped to the meat grinder of a front line where the life expectancy is like 3 days.

they fight against these people, this comprador regime who is sacrificing multiple generations of men at the behest of the West in the hopes that they themselves will be enriched.

Russia intervened in and expanded an ongoing conflict in which ethnic Russians were being killed and which threatened it's security. The invasion of Iraq, what is happening now in Israel, and many other instances of state aggression demonstrate, without any doubt, that international law is dead.

Russia tried diplomacy through the Minsk accords. It has tried to join NATO. In the absence of international law Russia's actions seem, if not smart, rational. We in the U.S. would never allow Russia to do a parallel soft encroachment on us. In this country a stray weather balloon can be casus belli. Some drones are spotted over New Jersey and there are people on the evening news referencing an Iranian "mother ship" and urging war with Iran even though no such ship exists. One can't imagine the reaction of a rival military alliance trying to convert a neighboring country because, and believe me this is true, the whole world would be engulfed in nuclear holocaust before the U.S. would let that happen. Ukraine and the U.S. are doing something, NATO expansion to Russia's doorstep, which if done to the U.S. would result in nuclear war. I'm just glad Russians are not as war mad as we are because if they were we'd all be dead.

Also from Deuces McKraken:

😆

yeah I meant I have no motive to support Russia other than not wanting to die in a nuclear holocaust. Do you understand what it could mean if Ukraine actually won?

When a nuclear powers says for decades that Ukraine is an existential red line, and it Ukraine officially means nothing to us, I don't see why to pursue a proxy war. At some point you have to respect the destructive power of Russia's nukes and no I do not trust corrupt pigs controlled by the military complex to gauge that. Why you do is what fascinates me. How do they get you to support policies which, if you could see clearly for one second, would be repulsive to you is something I don't really understand.

...But you do support Russia, whether you profess to have no motive or not. All your posts itt are basically you stanning for Russia and demonising Ukraine.

I don't support aggressive invasion. Russia has been aggressively invading its neighbours nearly 20 years now. They gave pretty much the same excuse as Ukraine- protecting ethnic Russians- when they invaded Georgia. I take it Georgia where the real bad guys there and all, yeah?
Russia has shown a consistent pattern of this. So you've actually nothing to be fascinated about as this is quite simple. Putin's Russia are the aggressors here. So no I don't support them, unlike you, and yes I support Ukraine as they're not the bad guys here, despite your repeated insistence otherwise.

UK and France host 30 defence ministers ('Coalition of the Willing') at NATO HQ Brussels to discuss future security for Ukraine. Talk is cheap and weapons are expensive, but there are also a lot of European weapons supplies going in.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-convene-first-defence-ministers-ukraine-coalition-of-the-willing-meeting

GOV.UK

UK and France convene first Defence Ministers

hmm

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/ge...

Victor goes on bizarre rants against Ukraine's use of conscription, but never against Russia's. Russia regularly conscripts about 150,000 men twice a year, in spring and autumn. This spring's draft has been increased to 160,000 18-30-year-olds (the upper age limit used to be 27). Although Russian high-ups claim that conscripts will not be required to fight in Ukraine, this does not appear to be true, and in any case conscripts are likely to be used against the Ukrainian troops still present in the reduced Kursk salient and now also in part of Belgorod.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c36718p52eyo

BBC News

Putin begins biggest Russian military call-up in years

That report didn't really say what the media said it said. The war started with the Russians giving out Russian passports to people in Russian-occupied territory and Russian proxies in South Ossetia shelling Georgian positions. The report also found that Russia had engaged in unjustified aggression, beyond the amount necessary to protect their 'peacekeepers', and had also connived at ethnic cleansing by their South Ossetian separatist proxies.

Here's the report's principal author, Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, interviewed last year:-

https://neweasterneurope.eu/2024/11/21/revisiting-the-lessons-of-the-russo-georgian-war/

New Eastern Europe

Revisiting the lessons of the Russo-Georgian War - New Eastern Europe

Russia doesnt have roving bands of violent thugs Shanghaiing people off the streets as they scream for their mother.

and I routinely compare Russia to the USA. thats not mean to be a positive comparison.

oh cmon. this is real rich from a supporter of the West. ffs this is all they do.