Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Notice how whenever anything of substance is talked about the only one who even makes an attempt to engage is victor, and the people that get hard from dead palestinian babies because they can attack liberals just shrink away from it and pivot to conspiracies and insults.
Engaging bloodthirsty racists in serious debate is a waste of energy. They aren’t changing their minds and there are more productive things to be doing with one’s time.
“we aren’t antisemitic, we just believe that Jews are astroturfing the internet because nobody could possibly support Jews independently because they are evil greedy bloodsuckers”
You are naive child.
Engaging bloodthirsty racists in serious debate is a waste of energy. They aren’t changing their minds and there are more productive things to be doing with one’s time.
So you think there is a literal genocide going on but will let genocide apologia go unchallenged because you are too lazy? How dare you. You’re practically complicit in a genocide.
Strikes across Gaza kill at least 92 as Israel prepares to ramp up its offensive
The reason for the resistance is that Gazans feel like they live in an open air prison and "Palestinians" in the Judea/Samaria region don't like the check points. When this is all over and after thousands of deaths and destruction these peoples conditions will be far worse. There will be more check points and more restrictions.
Are these people really this stupid or do they just love their Jihad?
Neither. They are playing a long game where they feel if they keep up the pressure on Israel long enough (be it 5, 50, 100 years) Israel will eventually fold under the pressure. They sincerely feel God has given them a covenant to work towards this end, and he will reward them in the after life for their decisions in this one. On top of eventually leading them to victory.
So you think there is a literal genocide going on but will let genocide apologia go unchallenged because you are too lazy? How dare you. You’re practically complicit in a genocide.
Apportioning energy according to expected returns is efficiency, not laziness.
Engaging bloodthirsty racists in serious debate is a waste of energy. They aren’t changing their minds and there are more productive things to be doing with one’s time.
You're totally going to change people's minds by calling them bloodthirsty racists, due to them having the temerity to disagree with you.
***NEWSFLASH***
No one here has ever changed their mind about anything as fundamental and emotive as the Palestine situation.
People don’t expect to change minds; they argue or debate because they enjoy it.
***NEWSFLASH***
No one here has ever changed their mind about anything as fundamental and emotive as the Palestine situation.
People don’t expect to change minds; they argue or debate because they enjoy it.
Maybe they're open to changing their minds but you fail miserably to achieve this due to your bad faith labeling and general shitty arguments?
***NEWSFLASH***
No one here has ever changed their mind about anything as fundamental and emotive as the Palestine situation.
People don’t expect to change minds; they argue or debate because they enjoy it.
normies do.
For normies who aren't super into the topic, both sides have their reasons.
10 7 moved normies pro-Israel, so pro Hamas people had to go allin with anti israel propaganda and talk about genocide, so some normies who actually pictured themselves as being possibly killed by terrorists the same as it happened to israeli, now also think a lot about the poor palestinian children being purportedly genocided and so on.
You are right about people who care about the issue, impossible to change your mind (because it's not about arguments or facts, it's about values and preferences).
But as for basically every issue (including major ones like abortion, taxes, war), a lot of people don't have a clear cut value position they are enamored with.
At least congressmen are getting money for supporting genocide… the brainwashed will do it for free!!
Maybe they're open to changing their minds but you fail miserably to achieve this due to your bad faith labeling and general shitty arguments?
You certainly aren't, on this topic, no matter who you're arguing with.
Less aligned members of the general public aren't in this thread.
Neither. They are playing a long game where they feel if they keep up the pressure on Israel long enough (be it 5, 50, 100 years) Israel will eventually fold under the pressure. They sincerely feel God has given them a covenant to work towards this end, and he will reward them in the after life for their decisions in this one. On top of eventually leading them to victory.
The backing of the US printing press and the US public is Israel's greatest power. With interest payments on the national debt greater than the military budget and with those payments approaching 20% of tax revenue (average European country is 2-4%), the bond market has already started to go in banana republic mode (first major step is for the long end of the yield curve to rise when the central bank lowers the overnight rate). Given the Rubicon the Israelis are crossing into full ethnic cleansing using money the US can't afford to spend, the public support argument speaks for itself.
Additionally, the US has to keep their aircraft carriers off the coast of Oman and northern Saudi Arabia while fighting the Houthis, and yet the vast majority of Americans think the navy is powerful enough to stop China from doing what they want in the South China Sea. There is a lot of delusion on the pro-West side right now. Future historians might view Trump as a sort of Gorbachev, making big changes while the ship was far closer than everyone expected to sinking.
You certainly aren't, on this topic, no matter who you're arguing with.
Less aligned members of the general public aren't in this thread.
Really? I readily stated that Trump's proposal to forcibly displace Gazans would be ethnic cleansing. I'm not as pig headed as you might presume. I just find current accusations of genocide apartheid etc as bad faith bullshit.
At least congressmen are getting money for supporting genocide… the brainwashed will do it for free!!
I really don't understand people who don't have some religious belief that wants to see "Jews return to wherever" as a part of some prophecy but who support Israel in this. If you're an outsider to the religions involved and to the region, how do you look at what is going on and declare yourself on the side of the murderous colonizers?
I understand Leftists being horrified by the atrocities committed by Israel. Some people do have principles and values and when they find out their own country is betraying those values they come down on the side of Palestinians. But who looks at this from a neutral or secular standpoint and says I'm on the side of the cruel racist murdering empire, and adamantly so?
I understand religious delusions of the Right. I understand sympathy or the Left. I understand the greed of weapons makers seeing the situation as a profit center. I understand politicians being owned by AIPAC. I understand Israelis who want to take something that isn't theirs so they can have it. What I can't wrap my mind around are those Americans who are not benefitting in any way whatsoever from Israeli's ethnic cleansing operations but who strongly support Israel. I cannot come up with any rational line of thinking I can attribute to these people.
If you support Yemen’s blockade of Israel’s ports, and BDS then surely you should have no problem with this? Economic warfare to change the hearts of the population is common in warfare.
Unfortunately the way the right in Israel sees it they would rather take over all of Gaza and give aid themselves than to lift the blockade because the international community has demonstrated an unwillingness to secure aid convoys.
I always regarded deliberate systematic forced displacement as a form of ethnic cleansing. That's pretty much what Trump was proposing. Ahem for their own good of course, was what I believe the justification used was.
And in case you're thinking of springing the nakba on me, some fled, but others were indeed expelled by Zionist militias, within the context of a war, after Israel was invaded.
If you wish to say that the actual expulsions was a form of ethnic cleansing, I won't necessarily disagree. I wouldn't put in the same category as say, Srebrenica but again won't disagree. as there is merit to such an argument.
I don't think that Israel are currently engaging in ethnic cleansing though. If they do attempt to forcibly displace the Gazan populace I'll change my opinion and condemn them for it. That doesn't mean I'm against their existence as a state, just that I wouldn't have any problem condemning them, like I'd condemn the actions of other states.
But I certainly don't think they're engaging in genocide or are an apartheid state or colonialists. And I find it bemusing that far leftists froth at the mouth at anti migrancy into Europe and America, indeed referring to the illegal ones as "undocumented", so as not to offend the illegal's sensibilities, yet European Jewish migration is considered colonisation. The inconsistency and unwillingness to be egalitarian on the issue, is partially the reason they face accusations of anti Semitism. And I'm aware plenty of those who are anti immigration are flat out far right bigots, but that doesn't nullify the inconsistency.
Despite my being pro Israel and certainly pro IDF compared to the likes of Hamas et al, I certainly don't think they're infallible or immune to criticism. I just have no time for the genocide label as it trivialises actual genocides such as The Holocaust Rwanda, Cambodia etc.
You'll never change my belief in Israel's right to exist. But you'll do better changing people's minds by not engaging in hyperbole, which is what I consider- at best btw- the genocide/apartheid/colonialist labels to be.
I really don't understand people who don't have some religious belief that wants to see "Jews return to wherever" as a part of some prophecy but who support Israel in this. If you're an outsider to the religions involved and to the region, how do you look at what is going on and declare yourself on the side of the murderous colonizers?I understand Leftists being horrified by th
right, its very strange. like, I can see how a white person can be a White Supremacist or how a nationalist can believe in the superiority of his nation or locale. but I dont understand how an outsider can consider another ethnicity to be superior to themselves and all others. its truly bizarre.
we can see a healthy normo-weight child on the left so you should have cropped it better, otherwise we might have fallen for the idea that it wasn't a disease (which it obviously is)
I really don't understand people who don't have some religious belief that wants to see "Jews return to wherever" as a part of some prophecy but who support Israel in this. If you're an outsider to the religions involved and to the region, how do you look at what is going on and declare yourself on the side of the murderous colonizers?I understand Leftists being horrified by th
If you don't understand why a rightwing , pragmatic, pro western capitalism rightwing person stands with Israel, i can try to explain.
Judaism isn't a threat to our countries, both because jews aren't very numerous, and because modern judaism isn't much different from what we value morally.
You can be an atheist and still realize religions aren't all the same and islam is one of the worst ones socially. The ban on alcohol alone more than suffices to consider it a mortal threat to my culture as italian for example.
That alone again suffices for me to always stand with enemies of islam in any confrontation , and to always hope any islam on islam war gets as long as possible with as much destruction as possible. They are actively my enemies.
You might claim "wait, they only ban alcohol in their countries!" but no, that's not the only thing they do. They finance pseudoscience against alcohol and hijack the empathy of leftists and influence the WHO, they are financing a worldwide anti-alcohol movement right in this moment.
And again that alone even if literally nothing else differentiated islam from my culture, would be more than enough to declare permanent war on them and to be in favour of any attempt to reduce their power and influence worldwide.
If you add their extremely violent mysognist and homophobic attitudes (*and laws*), the picture is even more obvious.
Then there is the "taking something that isn't theirs". Lol that's what everyone always attempts to do all the times. And when we do it, or when it's done to people we dislike, it's moral. When they do it, it's not. simple as that. Power is might and what is beneficial to us and to people we ally with is moral and viceversa. There are no other principles that our self interest.
That's being rightwing and pragmatic, i hope you understand it better now.
Israel is an important strategic ally, and also they didn’t start the war. Israel withdrew from Gaza and what did Gaza do? Vote in a genocidal terrorist organization that promptly ended democracy in their country.
I feel bad for kids living there but forgetting all historical context is wild.
