Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Flop feels like a clear check raise to me. It’s close to a gin flop for us after the speculative call pre and we have a range advantage.

He’s a nit and we’re deep and out of position. We have a meh one pair hand but both a ton of pot equity but also a ton of fold equity on later streets. Sure, he might call flop and even turn with AK or AQ and we actually want that because we win a bigger pot - is a nit really calling 2 and 3 barrels with a one pair hand?

As played, I like the lead on the turn too as a semi bluff. But I would be check raise $400, lead turn enough to set up a river jam

Preflop has to be pretty bad even if you were a BTN straddle, OOP and this deep with a dry side pot it has to be significantly worse than that.
Maybe if we have reads on V playing in dry side pots it would only be pretty bad again.

On the flop though, if you aren't raising this wtf ... it also looks so strong because of the dry side pot, you should be able to get a _lot_ of folds.
Although, to be fair, I would not bet much here as V.

To be fair, he has AA and we really don't. After that I guess we can make more stupid calls with 76s than he makes stupid raises with them but even 98s is technically a fine open.
So I think it _should_ pretty close on the flop, and I'd treat it that way and only bet very strong draws or made hands.

I think turn donk is bad. Assuming the 8 is better for us than him is wrong. Maybe Euro doesn't raise 98s here, but it's not like we can call flop in a dry side pot with 98s/88 either. On the other side 98s/88 are one of the few hands types I'd bet this flop with as V.

We do have 20 outs v 98 tbf

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I can give you guys an idea of my opponents:

Playing 8 handed 1/2 with a bunch of old guys who are pretty bad -- loose/passive for the most part. They call raises w/ PPs, suited cards, gappers, big cards, and they chase draws. Only 3bet w/ QQ/KK/AA.

H is the only woman who plays in this game. The most aggressive player. Raises a lot pre, rarely limps, etc.

H (covers) raises to $12 UTG w/ JTs. I have been raising and taking it down, and if they call, they are easy to play against post. Folds to SB (~$150) who calls. He actually seems to know a little more than others, raises and 3bets wider, but he's still bad. BB goes all in for $25. I decide to isolate, because SB can't be very strong, and raise to $100. Thoughts? SB flats w/ about $30 behind. LOL. Flop comes low cards, he puts in the $30, I sigh call. He has 66, BB has 44, and I hit a T on the river. LOL.

SB berates me for raising to $100 w/ JTs. I just keep my mouth shut.

I stacked him again later when I raised w/ 99, flop was 983cc. He called me down (I bet 3/4 on flop and over bet the turn because I knew he was tilted), and calls his last $60 in on the T river w/ T7o.

BTW, the guy next to me asked how I lead $60 in on the river -- wasn't I scared of the straight? 😀

Raising in EP with J high at shortish stacked ($150) and microstacked ($25) tables is pretty meh, imo. As the money goes in here, we're mostly flipping at best and destroyed at worst, and never destroying.

And obviously these opponents are lol... but if we have no FE against these jokers, should we be attempting to "isolate" for large percentages of stacks with J high?

GimoG

The money is so rarely going in here it's incredible.

After he just calls in the SB? I think 100% isoing. He should be pretty weak here, which he was. My raise looks very strong, and he should be folding almost every hand he called with.

The raise pre is whatever. These guys are so bad that I'm raising JTs+ almost every time, even from UTG, but I know these guys extremely well, which makes all the difference.

I didn't care if BB went all in. He would have folded 80% of his hands -- he just happened to have a pair. I was incredibly shocked that the SB called the $100, though, but my read was right.

Oh, and they were the only ones under 100bb. It just turned out weird.

Another funny exchange: I mentioned that I only straddle BTN, and one of them was adamant that it didn't matter where you straddled -- he literally thought it had no effect on play.

I'm going to have to start posting more hands here. You guys will get a kick out of it.

If everyone else is much deeper then obviously much more of a "standard" play. Just sayin' at smaller stacks that getting too out-of-line preflop is very meh.

GcluelessshortstackedtablenoobG

epic

Game is a 2/5 table 1k cap in a casino but we’re playing 2/5/10/20 with a min come in of 30 (casino gaming dictates the 20 is a blind bet, we can’t double straddle, so to combat this it’s agreed upon that no one limps so the 20 gets to act)

This specific hand is 2/5/10/20/40/80/160 (no limping rule still applies).

10, 20, 80 are all super tight but only 80 has a reasonably large stack to worry about (2k ish). 10 and 20 are both sub 1k. I don’t think it’s outlandish to think that they fold medium PPs and smaller to resistance here. Also know 20 isn’t getting it in with AK for 1k specifically against me (probably others too, I’m not by any means tight in this game.)

40 has like 2k and can get sticky in smaller pots or postflop when flops get big but haven’t seen him get sticky with weak hands preflop in big pots. seems more straight forward.

160 has just under 1k and is steaming from losing a couple big pots and rebuying a few times. Normally he calls pre wide and I don’t think it’s outlandish to think he might be even wider here.

Hero (covers remaining players) is BB and folds to me with A8cc.

Who is doing what?

Easy jam

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I'd check the A7 clubs from the BB.

I'd raise a stronger range from out of position.

How can you check? It's 160 to go and you are in for 5...

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So we're playing like 10bb deep? Seems like A8s is a pretty standard jam.

Thanks. Not being much of a tourney player I wasn’t sure if this was a pure jam but it’s kinda what I figured after the fact.

Results:

Just random thoughts...

It's similar but not exactly like a tourny situation. In tournaments, you may not be able to rebuy / reload like you can in cash games. If it's late in a tourny and you're 10BB eff, most AXs become standard pre-flop jams when only the two players in the blinds have any money invested.

In this cash game situation with multiple blinds / straddles, it gets a little harder to figure out. I've been in similar games twice. One was a 1/3 that became 1/3/6/12/24, and one was a 2/5 that became 2/5/10 with an occasional blind 20. In those two games, only the first three blinds had an option to re-raise. The rest of the "blinds" were just blind bets with no option to raise unless someone else raised first.

In both games, the opening ranges and positions got weird. Like, you'd see guys limp in from EP with big PP's and shove-able hands, expecting someone in the blinds/straddles/blind raises to come in for a 3B. We were seeing 100-200BB stacks getting pushed across the table almost every hand, when the action would go limp-raise-jam-fold or call.

If this is also a 9-handed game, there are a lot of players to get through (five of them), so which hands are playable / shove-able becomes debatable based on the tendencies of the players left to act, and how deep they are off the table, meaning whether or not they're willing to play for stacks and can reload to get back into the game if they go broke.

I'm not saying that A8s isn't worth a shove, but...it might not be. It depends on how willing we are to play for $1k stacks, and how willing the remaining 5 players behind us are. If we get called, we're probably not in great shape, so shoving is basically a bluff with reasonable equity against wide calling ranges.

I'm not sure what to think about a plan to raise to $500 and fold if the one guy who covers us jams. I guess it depends on how deep we are. If we're over $1.5k deep, I guess it's okay, but in that scenario I think I'd just fold A8s and not put myself in the position of having to fold after sticking in $500.

Thanks for the thoughts docvail.

I get tourney strat isn’t exactly apples to apples but the problem is neither is normal cash strat. It’s just such an outlier game that there isn’t much thought put into something like this from the general population. I’ve started studying tourney strat specifically for this game though because I figure it couldn’t hurt to at least have a better understanding of low BB spots. That’s also led to playing a bunch of online tourneys this month, which has been surprisingly good, alibiet all in candy stakes.

I’m generally willing to play for stacks in this game. Of the normal players, there are only a few solid pros/recs who I’ve even seen play in it. Only 1 pro regularly plays. The rest are legit fish/whales. They aren’t typically hitting and running or locking up wins if they get up a few thousand (it’s not unusually to see 5k+ pots), so if I give them chips I usually have a reasonable expectation of at least a chance to get them back. Definitely a good suggestion to keep in mind and try to gauge their abilities to reload and how that may factor into their decision making.

Wrt the one tight and deep player I said I would raise/fold to, he was around $2k effective. Maybe 2.2ish max.

My thought process, which definitely could be very flawed, was that with all the other players 500 or 1000 is effectively the same number. I believe they’re pretty static about entering the pot at that point. If they jam, I know I’m probably behind or a lol-flip against 77/66 but I’m just priced in and it is what it is. Against the 1 player, if he jams for 2k, the pot is like 2800 and it’s 1500 for me to call, so like 34%. A8s against A9o+ is only 32% and I know he’s got a lot more better hands than that and probably like none worse than A8s. Like I said, maybe it’s flawed logic, but in game I actually took the time to think about it and that was where I landed.

Take all this for whatever it's worth...

There's a weekly $340 buy-in one-day tournament at Parx, which I've probably played 20 times over the last 18 months. I also used to play in a local $45 BI tournament that was once a month.

My observation is that when the buy-in is low, people tend to be much more willing to get short stacks in with hands they probably shouldn't. I see wing-nuts open jamming 20BB+ with KJs. It's insane, because 20BB isn't short enough to play as a jam-or-fold. They get tired and frustrated, and start thinking, "eff it, let's hope to get lucky."

I think it's different in a low-stakes cash game that suddenly becomes a bigger game because people are adding multiple straddles. Most people coming to play 1/3 or 2/5 don't mentally adjust to a single straddle. They think they're still playing 1/3 or 2/5, because that's the name of the game. If they do adjust, they usually tighten up, because, "whoa, this game is getting big." Sometimes they default to a tournament-style jam-or-fold mindset, but mostly they just play tighter.

When multiple straddles get added on, and the stacks aren't super-deep, I think people go one way or the other - they either get super-tight, or start jamming any hand that looks playable. But I think the "correct" adjustment is to just tighten up when you're NOT in the blinds, or when you're in one of the early blinds, and look to jam with hands that are going to have good equity if you get called. Like, if you jam with JJ and run into AA, that sucks, but more likely you'll get called by someone with AQs or 99, and you're either flipping or way ahead.

We only want to loosen up when we're in one of the bigger blinds/straddles, and need to defend wider. Here, if you're only in for $5, and you think A8s isn't going to fare well against anyone's calling range, and will fare especially poorly against the big stacks jamming range, it's probably better to just fold.

Not fun story - a frequent nemesis in that tournament open jammed KJs for 20BB, and I snapped with KK in the BB. The flop came QTXrb, giving him the OESD. The turn was an ace, the river a brick, and he scooped. I ended up knocking him out anyway, a few hands later, but I had to shake my head watching a 42.5BB pot get pushed his way.

2/5/10 1k effective, not a huge spot so posting it here and hoping for a few replies

table is loosey goosey , we have AsKs in cutoff raise to 30

BB main vilain calls; old dude loose passive, will barrell turn often though if weakness on flop (old man thinking that if you check flop you have nothing!) River is more rare

straddle loose aggro fish on a heater calls

flop 8s8c2d (92)

x/x/ I check ?

Turn 8s8c2d 3s (92)

BB leads for 55, Lag fish folds, I call

River 8s8c2d 3sAc (202)

BB bets 150, H?

I should have a tight image, not sure if old man cares or not, but I figure the A is really good for my range and he still bombs. I've seen him bet turn often as a bluff (semi bluff) , river is more rare, maybe once this session and a few times in previous sessions with him.

It's probably should be a fold, but I probably end up calling.
You can beat a missed flush draw, maybe he has a suited connector?
Maybe he has 54s for a wheel. Or obviously an 8.
It's a big bet on the river with what should be a scary card. Try to get a live read. You said V is passive. A fold would be disciplined.

When I first read it I thought, I guess I call because I'm not sure how much value we get by raising and getting 3bet would suck

But on a second read of the last text, I think you are trying to decide between call and fold on the river?
I wouldn't worry about it too much, the A might look like a good bluff card if he has nothing and you'd be folding almost everything if you fold.
He can bet like 55 on turn, and now decide to bet you off a slightly better overpair ... or bluff Ax on turn and be trying to get value from KK or whatever.

Yeh, it kind of sucks when he turns over 87 or whatever and you'll remember it for too long ... but the problem is when he turns over something worse (or just says you're good) you'll forget about the hand within a day (so it's difficult to not get a skewed view of results).

ya i was trying to think if he values worse, like an AT, AJ that bet the turn and now sees an ace and gets excited, not sure he does it for that sizing though. Also not sure if this particular player is capable of turning 55-77 into a bluff, doesn't seem to fit the profile.

Raising isn't terrible, if I jam, V probably folds most 8x except A8 which I block , he can only call with boats (22,33) and maybe 54. I'm repping AA only which I do check at a high frequency on that flop, tempting but high variance obviously

Yuck.

I'd probably call too often, and fold not often enough. If he was bluffing, I'd expect him to slow down on the river when the ace hits.

As for the rest of the hand, I think checking back the flop multi-way as the PFR in late position is okay. I wouldn't hate a small c-bet, with plans to fold if we get raised, and just check back turn if we get called.

In theory, V has worse for value here, but less so when we have the As in our hand. Maybe he was slow-playing a different AK combo or AQ pre, was bluffing turn, and is now betting for value, and we either win or chop when we call. But calling to chop or beat AQ seems optimistic when he's calling pre out of the BB, and could easily have 8x or 22.

Small pot, simple spot that comes up often enough, looking for a line check and thoughts on c-bet bluffing & double/triple barreling -

1/3 - 9 handed
300 eff stacks

V is MAWG, just sat down an orbit ago, seems to be a middle of the road rec player, a bit too loose pre, not too aggressive.

H RFI 15 in UTG+2 w/ Ah Th, CO calls, HU to the flop

Flop ($28) - Kh 7d 2c
H b15, CO c

(Such a disconnected K high board could get a lot of folds from Vs range)

Turn ($58) - Kh 7d 2c Qh
H b40, CO c

(Turned a flush draw + gutshot, so seemed like a good card to barrel to fold out random floats, 7x or 88-JJ that didn't 3b)

River ($138) - Kh 7d 2c Qh Ks
H ???

(Is this a river I should just give up and x/f?)