GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
The best player on the dream team was Charles Barkley. Pippen had a case for being 2nd or maybe Karl Malone. Then maybe Chris Mullin, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, David Robinson, and Magic Johnson. Jordan was legitimately maybe the worst regular on the team if you go by the stats. His shooting percentages were terrible across the board and he led the team in turnovers.
Not talking about who played the best in the Olympics, or had the best efficiency or +/- in the Games, but about who were the best players having been playing against each other.
Jordan was the only guy on the Olympic team that had high PPG and APG - the only scorer-passer on the team, while also carrying the defense (5 steals per game).. His efficiency was fine at 45% despite a small sample of bad 3-point shooting.
None of this matters because a player's capability against the best comp (NBA) is all that matters, not what happened on vacation against amateurs.
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Regular Season
Playoffs
^^^ Curry won 67 and 73 games with a sidekick that produced less than Jeff Hornacek and a roster that no one thought was good (+2800 preseason odds).
Unfortunately, he gets no credit because today's generation assumes 70 wins = stacked, but the only thing that has ever won 70 games is goat CHEMISTRY (bulls, warriors).
Michael Jordan took 4 more shots per game than anyone on the dream team. Despite this he somehow didn't lead the team in scoring by more than 3ppg.
He was the least efficient player on the team (other than the token college player) by having a shooting percentage 5% less than everyone else on the team. He managed to achieve this despite Magic having Aids and Bird playing with a broken back.
Michael Jordan also didn't average 5 steals per game despite rumours in this thread.
Ranking the players for the Dream Team
Barkley
Malone
Pippen
Mullin
Then it gets murky after that.
Michael Jordan took 4 more shots per game than anyone on the dream team. Despite this he somehow didn't lead the team in scoring by more than 3ppg.He was the least efficient player on the team (other than the token college player) by having a shooting percentage 5% less than everyone else on the team. He managed to achieve this despite Magic having Aids and Bird playing with a
You should be aware that merely winning the games wasn't enough for the Dream Team.. They had to basically spot every team a 40 point lead and then come back - 40 points or more every game.
In order to accomplish this maximum ceiling for that collection of talent, MJ had to be the #1 threat - MJ had to dictate how open everyone else got - the team needed the goat scorer's defensive attention to free up the team the most.. This is intuitive.. So even though MJ was surrounded by great scorers, he still needed to face the most defensive attention for the team to reach it's ceiling of 40-50 ppg blowouts in every game.
Ultimately, MJ was the only guy on the Olympic team that had high PPG and APG - the only scorer-passer on the team, while also carrying the defense (5 steals per game).. His efficiency was fine at 45% given the aforementioned "blowout burden expectation" that he carried for the team.
None of this matters because a player's capability against the best comp (NBA) is all that matters, not what happened on vacation against amateurs.
If everyone else had played like Jordan did the dream team would've been really lackluster. Probably still win gold against that years joke competition, but Jordan is basically lucky that 10 other guys brought their A game, because he clearly didn't.
He was probably as usual thinking about playing golf, drinking miller lites, and smoking cigars. Which is cool and all but not really a great recipe for me to want to worship a guy as a sports untouchable GOAT. Others with similar talent have been far more committed to the game.
Lol, see that's your whole problem - you guys think MJ was just some 6'6" dude.
MJ was the quickest player ever above 6'4".. He was as quick as anyone 6'4", and quicker than 99.9% of 6'3" guys.
So take a guy that jumps like Vince Carter but has the quickness of Westbrook and big man hands.. His skills were also a hundred years ahead of his time... Today's players for example have no skill compared to him - Jordan elevated 4 feet on his jumpers but had the best mid-range touch ever - today's players have no turnaround jumper for example, while his was literally goat. There's no one like him.. He could hang in the air for almost a full second, so his shot-making looks alien at times
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Hoopin' is about putting the ball in the hole, so the GOAT must be arguably the goat scorer
In addition to being the goat scorer, Jordan is also the goat playmaker:
^^^ Jordan won titles in nearly all of these seasons.
Given Jordan's singular level of domination, why should anyone be surprised that he won 6 chips as the best player (twice as many as anyone in 3-pointer history)???.. His caliber of domination is unmatched..
Aside from MJ, the only guys that were scoring champ and NBA champ in the same season were Kareem and Shaq in their peak seasons of 1971 and 2000, so their peak burden to win a chip was MJ's standard burden to win all 6 chips... The GOAT should also have goat MVP caliber, and only 1 guy won MVP, FMVP, scoring title and 1st team defense in a season, and he did it 4 times - Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan.
Not talking about who played the best in the Olympics, or had the best efficiency or +/- in the Games, but about who were the best players having been playing against each other.
Every player on the Dream Team said that MJ was the best on the team:
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09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'............. 18 on 38%.......... #3 team defense
89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs'................ 15 on 40%........ #11 team defense
96' Pippen' vs #2 SRS Sonics.............. 16 on 34%.......... #1 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat'................ 16 on 39%.......... #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.............. 17 on 39%.......... #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'.................. 16 on 41%.......... #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............. 18 on 41%.......... #1, #4, #9 defenses
TLDR: Jordan always won with "mo williams" scoring and efficiency from Pippen and worse team defenses than the 09' Cavs had because Jordan could effectively carry the scoring load.
Otoh, Lebron never carried weak help over top teams because he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick... He also never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).
Lebron is simply too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.
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That's like when everyone praises the ******ed kid.. "You're the BEST"type of thing.the people who are actually the best nod their head in agreement and play along Cumbaya my lord .. Cumbayaaaa It meant exactly zero and virtually everyone knew what MJ was doing there, even fansAgain, show me where his SF matchups praised him.. (on either end of the floor)..
Show me where bill Russel was a handful in scoring …..
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The only guys in history with a season of 3k points and 600 assists are Luka, SGA, and Harden, and then Jordan did it 3 times.. But only Jordan won a title that way (1992 - the goat title).
Furthermore, the only guys that achieved a season of 3k points and a title are 2000 Shaq and maybe SGA this year, and then Jordan 6 times (6 of 10 years that he scored 3k points).
So you were clearly wrong - MJ is goat and Lebron isn't even on these lists, let alone in any goat debate.. It's absurd to fabricate a debate for a reputed loser and the biggest underachiever of rosters ever
Lebron was such an efficient play maker that he never has to carry a disproportionate amount of the bulk scoring (ALA a way better Magic). That elite play making means he didn't ever play with a bricklayer like Pippen. Pippen would be considered top 30 all time if he played with Lebron. And Lebron is still the all time leading scorer. LOL MJ
The only guys in history with a season of 3k points and 600 assists are Luka, SGA, and Harden, and then Jordan did it 3 times.. But only Jordan won a title that way (1992 - the goat title).Furthermore, the only guys that achieved a season of 3k points and a title are 2000 Shaq and maybe SGA this year, and then Jordan 6 times (6 of 10 years that he scored 3k points).So you were
So, what you are saying is that you were wrong when you said "nearly all the years".
Last time I checked 33% and 60% is not "nearly all the years".
You also back this up with that everyone else on the list didn't win in those seasons, showing that there is very little correlation with scoring 3,000 points or having 3,000 points and 600 assists with winning. There were also a bunch of players (e.g. Harden & Westbrook) that were on target to hit 3000/600, but didn't because they were knocked out before the Finals, because they play a style that would get them to 3,000/600 if they played 100 games.
Seems like a dumb thing to say is important in being the GOAT. In fact you could almost argue the opposite.
So, what you are saying is that you were wrong when you said "nearly all the years".Last time I checked 33% and 60% is not "nearly all the years".You also back this up with that everyone else on the list didn't win in those seasons, showing that there is very little correlation with scoring 3,000 points or having 3,000 points and 600 assists with winning. There were also a bunc
I'm glad you brought up Westbrook because it highlights the stat-padding aspect of scoring.
Essentially, only Jordan could score a lot while playing winning basketball, while everyone else in history stat-padded or needed teammates to step up and shoulder part of the scoring load.
Ultimately, no one else could win with dominant scoring except 2000 Shaq - he's the only guy that reached GOAT-caliber, aka MJ's level of dominance.
So it's pretty amazing how much better MJ is than anyone in history. There are so many ways to prove it.. Countless ways.. This is just 1 way.
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1st Round
07' JAMISON'.......... 32 ppg
07' LEBRON............ 28 ppg
08' JAMISON......... #14 MVP...... 2x all-star
08' GASOL............... nothing'.... 1x all-star
^^^ this is an idea of Jamison's caliber - he was a rare 20k scorer
Pippen would be considered top 30 all time if he played with Lebron. And Lebron is still the all time leading scorer. LOL MJ
How is that possible when Lebron could never win with Pippen?
Pippen is considered an all-timer because of his 6 rings, but Lebron can't win with Pippen, due to insufficient scoring help.
Specifically, Lebron needs franchise players from other teams to play 2nd and 3rd option for him.. These guys were all-time scorers and closers like Wade, Luka, Kyrie and AD (#4 all-time PER)... So Pippen wouldn't qualify based on his weak scoring ability and bad shooting (horrific fit with Lebron).
Furthermore, Lebron already lost as an OKC-level favorite in 2010 with a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option (Jamison), while having better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls (2007-2010 Cavs).
The statistical reality is that Pippen needs someone that can win many series when Pippen wets the bed with 16 ppg on 40%, but Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick..
Ultimately, Pippen needs someone that can carry the scoring load, which can't be Lebron... Lebron is ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.. A mostly transition player, dunker, and bricklayer like Pippen wouldn't be anywhere near enough help for Lebron... Nothing is enough for a player that reduces everyone to spot-up shooter like Lebron does, which is why the story for 22 years is him needing more help.
Lebron was such an efficient play maker that he never has to carry a disproportionate amount of the bulk scoring (ALA a way better Magic).
That elite play making means he didn't ever play with a bricklayer like Pippen.
Nonsense - Lebron was gifted a "pippen", but turned him into a bricklayer:
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-Defense
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... None
^^^ After Lebron and Zydrunas made the 2005 all-star team, they made the playoffs in 2006 by signing a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (above), and also a HOF coach.
Lebron "floor-raised" the Cavs to 45 wins by Year 5 (2008), before adding ANOTHER all-star in 09' that lifted the Cavs to league favorite - this is similar to AD lifting the Lakers from lottery to league favorite.. Then they added a better scorer than Pippen to be 3rd option in 2010, while still having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
Obviously, this 7th Year organic juggernaut was expected to win the title easily, but they were historically-upset in the 2nd Round, which forced Lebron to flee.. He put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team and somehow convinced the media and public to still think he's good and "rules the East"... But he never ruled the East - he was historically locked up in a series, or he was historically-upset for 4 straight years (07-10'), which forced him to flee and put the top 3 players in the East on 1 team.. then he STILL lost in 2011, lol... Oddsmakers hated the 3 straight upsets and made his veteran super-team the underdog to baby Westbrick in 2012.. All of this historical record is revealing and shows that Lebron is overrated.
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense
2005 Hughes was the minimum that Jordan won with (above).
1990 is important because it shows that Lebron started with better help than Jordan on both sides of the ball (below), yet Jordan still beat him to titles:
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM...... #3 team defense
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM.... #19 team defense
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM.... #11 team defense
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM.... #19 team defense
Jamison and the aforementioned Hughes were also better than 1990 Pippen, so Lebron was gifted 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen... Unfortunately, his skillset of turning guys into spot-up shooter couldn't develop them into champions like MJ did with Pippen.
To summarize, Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball in 2009 than Jordan did in 1990, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron lost as the favorite for 3 straight years (09-11')... By acquiring Hughes, Lebron was gifted his "pippen" but Lebron's skillset turned him into spot-up shooter and destroyed him just like Ingram, Westbrook, Love and others.. For example, most people think Love is a weak player after sacrificing his prime for "bron-ball"... This is what happened to Hughes.
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense93' PIPPEN........... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense 2005 Hughes was the minimum that Jordan won with (above).
so what?
lebron and mj both lost shrug
are we at a point where we compare two losing team with each other o0 ?
pippen 90 and the bulls did not won anything....
so why caring ?
i would get it if u used 91 pippen but 90 pippen makes no sense at all.
so what?
lebron and mj both lost shrug
are we at a point where we compare two losing team with each other o0 ?
pippen 90 and the bulls did not won anything....
so why caring ?
i would get it if u used 91 pippen but 90 pippen makes no sense at all.
1993 was Pippen's worst season that he won a title, and his numbers that year were worse than 05' Hughes.. So Jordan won with Hughes-caliber and Lebron couldn't.
Lebron simply cratered Hughes and couldn't grow him into a champion.
And again, Lebron was gifted FOUR GUYS that were better than 1990 Pippen but he couldn't develop any of them... aka 0 for 4... This is Lebron's fault - he has zero young player development in 22 seasons because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter...
Zero teammate development + bad chemistry = underperforming favored talent, such as barely winning 50 games with the preseason favorite, thereby falling to underdog.. So Lebron is a joke that must defend his non-existent "bag", lol . What a loser and fraud... He's nowhere near my top 10.. get that loser all the way away from my top 10.
1993 was Pippen's worst season that he won a title, and his numbers that year were worse than 05' Hughes.. So Jordan won with Hughes-caliber and Lebron couldn't.Lebron simply cratered Hughes and couldn't grow him into a champion.And again, Lebron was gifted FOUR GUYS that were better than 1990 Pippen but he couldn't develop any of them... aka 0 for 4... This is Lebron's fault -
larry hughes had one decent season and you think its represent his entire career lol...
the guy was so great he was basically out the nba at 30 years old.
you live in a strange reality.
Hughes was entering his prime with TWO good seasons alongside Arenas that were equal or better than 1990 Pippen:
04' HUGHES.............. 17.6 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 1.7 OBPM... -0.7 DBPM... 19/7/4
90' PIPPEN................ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 0.4 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 16/6/5
05' HUGHES.............. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
And again, MJ won with Hughes-caliber in 93':
Regular Season
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense
Playoffs
05' HUGHES......... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM... -0.3 DBPM..... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg
93' PIPPEN........... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.0 OBPM.... 0.8 DBPM..... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg
the guy was so great he was basically out the nba at 30 years old.
you live in a strange reality.
The edges are thin among the top 400 in the world, so any borderline all-star that sacrifices several years in the middle of their prime (stops developing for several years) will lose the small edge they once had and now be behind the pack... This is why pros need to be pros and continually improve... Unfortunately, guys like Love, Hughes, Bosh and others got trapped in Bron-ball, which made them stand in the corner for several years of their prime.. This reduction alongside a ball-dominator like Lebron contrasts with Hughes blossoming alongside a great jumpshooter and off-guard like Arenas - this is similar to Pippen growing alongside off-guard Jordan.
