Moderation Questions

This is just a transparent and pretty moronic way to conflate different ways of using the word "value". If you take out a life inurance policy, is the "value" of your life the monetary value of that policy? Let's say that it is. Does that mean if I murder someone who has a life insurance policy for 50k I should get 20 times less prison time than if I murder someone who has a life insurance policy for 1m? Because that's what your dumb argument seems to be implying.

The fact that the punishment for murdering anyone is usually life in prison (subect to some variation based on circumstances, but certainly not based on the "value" of the victim) and the punishment for straight theft usually depends on the monetary value of the property stolen really should give you a massive clue here.

The punishment for causing the death of someone is often a lot less than that.

While first degree murder is considered particularly heinous almost everywhere and punished in a particularly harsh way, causing deaths, even mass deaths, isn't necessarily treated in a harsher way than stealing money or defrauding people, especially in the USA.

Which is why tobacco companies CEOs and high management didn't go to jail (but they had to pay what at the times was the highest fine ever basically) while Madoff got the equivalent of multiple life no parole sentences.

Here it's not a special set of values I have and most other people don't share.

It's you guys denying the society we live in does treat loss of human life as just another monetary damage and claim more often than not, and that has been settled a long while ago.

Btw the perceived societal value of the victim does play a significant role for society all the times.

Law enforcement doesn't spend the same resources investigating the death of a high profile CEO or member of state parliament than it spends investigating the death of a homeless person.

And the fact the last statement makes you feel "well that's obvious buuuut..." Should allow you to understand we did internalize the fact that different lives have different value so much, it's just shocking to think otherwise.

You can keep pretending you don't agree with the above value wise as much as you want but society is already built taking that into account, right now, it's not a wild preference I am expressing.

when corporations knowingly engage in practices that will lead to the deaths of innocents and they are caught - they are forced to pay fines and only fines

That’s true. Just look at Boeing.

Yes, causing death and murder are not the same thing. That's why in my post I said "murder" and not "causing death". I also used the word "murder" rather than "banana". You know why that is? Because I meant "murder". Selling drugs to someone who subsequently overdoses is not murder. Neither is selling cigarettes to someone who subsequently dies of lung cancer. Selling drugs or cigarettes laced with cyanide would be murder. Stop ****ing around with semantics in a cheap and transparent attempt to make your point.

Sure, society does place different values on different people in different circumstances, like for example the resources that might be expended to investigate crimes that they fall victim to. Not sure how you think that helps your point that destroying property and murdering people are somehow equivalent. We measure the cost of natural disasters or terrorist attacks in casualties and property damage, always as separate metrics; we don't convert the casualties to some dollar amount.

But PrOpeRty Is nOt life they chant while electing to remodel their pool with money that could save 5 starving African children.

Then after a refreshing swim in the pool, they go protest against USAID cuts.

Because PrOpeRty Is nOt life.

but luciom that's unfair it's private money vs public money!!! They say, while voting to forfeit student debts for amounts that would fund USAID for decades.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

Ok, so would you accept 10 million in property if it meant you wouldn’t wake up tomorrow? What about a billion?

Then tell us why 😀

100 men v a CN meme. You guys go in first.

I can do a day without waking up. I'll do it for the 10 Million.

There could be a number at some point in my life yes, because i have children i care about more than me. Ofc i would need time properly prepare things for that to happen in a way that satisfies me.

You do realize that people routinely make tradeoffs that reduce their quality of life ? including taking chances with their life in order to attempt to score big financial rewards? Yours is just an extremized example of a tradeoff a lot of people take very often in much smaller doses.

I mean have you ever heard of people working jobs where they can be killed on the job? how is that different?

Some people risked their lives to save ancient artifacts in many occasions in history. Iraqi guards in museums when all hell broke loose during the american invasion are the most recent example i can think of. They in some cases protected ancient artifacts from looters, with guns.

That's literally putting property above human life (theirs, and the looters life).

Then think about those eskimos that let themselves die in the cold not to be a burden for their younger relatives when food is scarce. They are accepting your proposition for a far lower sum that you are offering.

Though if you drive the get away vehicle in a robbery and someone gets killed you will be charged with murder so why is it a stretch if you sell drugs to someone and they overdose its not murder especially a drug like Fentanyl

Because the victim also made the choice.

Because you killed someone in the commission of another crime. Notice how if you're not driving away from a robbery but rather just driving very carelessly, it's not murder. It comes down to the level of culpability and intent. Different jurisdictions have different names for various crimes related to causing death that are not first degree murder, like manslaughter or negligent homicide or 2nd/3rd degree murder, or in your example sometimes felony murder (murder in the commission of another felony), but none of these examples are first degree murder, which is what I was talking about in my example to Luciom because that was all that was relevant to make my point.

I think people understand that if you're the getaway driver and get charged with murder that you're not actually a murderer.

On a semi-related topic, did you hear about the guy killed at one of the anti-Ice riots in Seattle?

Basically, instead of relying on police they decided to have their own open-carrying civilian "peacekeepers," and it went about as well as these things tend to.

Basically, a crazy far leftist started waving a gun around, and a "peacekeeper" (also a crazy far leftist) decided to neutralize him, but missed and killed a bystander. And now the guy who was waving the gun around, who never even fired a shot, is being charged for murder.

I did some light research on the issue.

1. It was Salt Lake City, not Seattle. Unless this refers to an almost identical incident not yet reported in the news, which I found unlikely.
2. It was not "Anti-Ice", it was part of the "No Kings" demonstrations.
3. There is no report that indicates the demonstration was a "a riot", per statements by the Police Chief of Salt Lake City the demonstration was peaceful until the shooting.
4. There were volunteers called peacekeepers, but since reports tell us "police were flagged down", it seems likely they were nearby.
5. Per the Police Chief, organizers worked closely with the police prior to the event and I can find no report that states that police were not present at all.
6. I can find no reports about motivations or political leanings of the people involved, it would probably be helpful if you linked to your sources for those claims.
7. The rifle-wielder was per report hit by shots fired. If he was hit by all them, I can't find in the reports and I am guessing this is not yet decided. It is the nature of bullets that they can be dangerous also after hitting what you aim for.
8. There was an interaction prior to the shooting, with the rifle wielder advanced on the demonstration also after warnings. The exact details on this particular interaction are not yet completely clear per the reports.

My best guess is that someone somewhere conflated this with the shootings during BLM-protests in Seattle a few years back, muddled up the story, posted it to social media where it did the rounds because factchecks are always ignored on social media and engagement did the rest.

-

I'm sure we will find plenty of things to criticize people for in this story, but mostly I see this particular post as a useful case study in how social media often makes a complete mess out of news, especially when it is combined with political motivation.

Nah. I just had a mind fart and wrote Seattle instead of salt lake city.

Why do you think there is no mention of the political ideologies of gun men involved in homicides during left wing demonstrations? Do you think perhaps because it is a narrative the media would prefer to obfuscate?

Anyways, other than to take a shot at left wing violence and the establishment doing a typical cover up, the point is the current discussion reminded me of the story, where the guy getting charged with murder didn’t even fire a shot.

Yeah sure, like you had a brain fart earlier when writing islamists instead of Fulani.

I of course was referring to rioters blocking roads and highways. Do you support this?

I, of course, was being witty. I was going to ask if you support this, but you're a conservative, so I know the answer already.

WAT

How could property be life? For one thing, life is... alive.

This must be some realllll hardcore libertarian semantic ****ery. Maybe one day you cranks will just admit that you're far more worried about corporations' ability to reap profits freely than the fate of, and the material conditions enjoyed by, breathing, feeling, living human beings.

maybe just stick to "taxation is theft"?

I mean, that's pretty dumb, but it's at least understandable and arguable.