GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

2004... 35 wins (lottery)
2005... 42 wins (lottery)
2008... 45 wins
2019... 37 wins (lottery)
2022... 33 wins (missed play-in)

^^^ By your logic, Lebron wasn't a franchise player.. So your logic is wrong, since he was still a franchise player despite often having bad regular seasons... A franchise player's job is to grow a franchise, and that's what Lebron and Love did... Love grew the T'Wolves to 40 wins despite no help, while Lebron won 45-50 games thru 5 seasons with better help, such as the East all-star center and coveted acquisitions... Lebron didn't become a contender until he added 2nd and 3rd all-stars in 09' and 10'.

So again, Lebron isn't top 10 - he needed to team up with opposing franchise players to win, while Curry, Duncan, Kobe and MJ won with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player because their superior skillsets produce better chemistry.

"The Bulls, Jordan, every time you hit him, he was crying," said Thomas on the Cedric Maxwell podcast.
“Going to David Stern’s office having a meeting about getting hit, getting fouled, you gotta change the rules.
I’m like, ‘Wait a minute. I watched Dr. J [Erving] get beat up, I watched Magic [Johnson] get beat up [and] I watched Bird get beat up. I done get beat up. Everybody get beat up. Now we gotta change the rules ‘cause he getting hit?’"

FG forgets to mention that David Stern was a member of the Chicago Bulls.

Nah , LeBron had success with garbage team , love never was close to be .
U only pin point his first 2 season while love never had anything going for years , never …

Not even seeing that shows u see nonsense everywhere .

I got a simple question for you , is pippen better then love ?

Isiah said Jordan was the GOAT during the 93' Finals and maintained this stance for 27 years until the Last Dance..

Then he started making stuff up, like what you posted. It never happened... Jordan never lobbied Stern or Krause for anything, and this is out of their own mouths. Let me know if you need the links

Isiah even refused to be a part of the upcoming Celtics ' doc because he's afraid that he'll get mad again and have to start sh*tting on Bird (his hero).

Love was a franchise player and top 10 player in 2014.. Many people on this forum said he was top 3... Everyone knows that Love was a franchise player, so you're just desperate to say anything and pretend you haven't lost the argument.

Since your argument is that Love isn't a franchise player, this means you lost, since he obviously was.

So everything stands... i.e. Lebron isn't top 10 because he needed to team up with opposing franchise players.. And we're actually talking MULTIPLE franchise players.. He needed more talent because his skillset produces bad chemistry (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).

Btw, Lebron needed a ton of help to win 50 games in 2006, such as the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 First Team Defense acquisition.. It isn't "success" to win 50 games with all-star teammates and coveted acquisitions.. So he never had bad rosters, and 50 wins isn't "success" when you have all-star and decorated 2-way teammates.

Ton of help?
Those stats sounds like pippen ….

Well we know u believe 1 year means almost everything in one player career but if love was a franchise player , my god he was bad …..

Ps:

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=pippesc01&player_id1=loveke01&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=loveke01

Stathead.com

Kevin Love vs. Scottie Pippen: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

If love a franchise player but pippen isn’t ?
lol….

Someone said something good about MJ - Telling the truth

Someone says something bad about MJ - Complete Liar!

#3 - Love makes an appearance!

Now we just gotta work in Ramon Sessions top 8 PG’

lol, oh man, MJ23 got listed on AirBNB.

let this be a lesson kids. no matter how popular you are, don't go plastering your name all over your property if you ever expect to sell it....

I called Lebron a liar for lying about the importance of rings with his comments recently.

well so at least now u admit mj had a franchise player with pippen then !
not just a "normal" roaster ...

stop it, kevin love played 4 season with lebon ffs in his entire career and was 29 years old when lebron left ...
what the hell did kevin love or his team did once lebron left and he was the man ?
nothing...

lets turn the table around.
what lebron need more to be part of top 10 since u believe he didnt accomplished enough ?

I said Larry Hughes or Zydrunas was like having Pippens, yet he did nothing... No title... No 3-peat... No 70 wins.

Otoh, Love was a franchise player, and therefore much better than Pippen.

Love got hurt in 2019 and his body type has a short prime, just like Bird - Bird was done at 31.

So again, Love was a franchise player that sacrificed his prime to be reduced by bron-ball..

For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needs franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option.. The reason that he needs so much help is because his skillset creates bad chemistry (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).

Everyone in my top ten either produced a great team (Russell, MJ, Curry, Shaq, Duncan), or they had goat statistical dominance (Wilt, MJ, Jokic), or they won with normal rosters of 1 franchise player (Kobe, MJ, Duncan, Curry, Jokic).

Lebron fails these tests, while also having the most bad losses in his prime with all-star teammates, or among the most.

And the reason for Love over Pippen is because franchise players are reserved for dominant producers like Love, KAT, AD, or Bosh, and their obvious dominance means that they don't need playoff success to make All-NBA...

Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA.. And no one got more winning spotlight than Pippen - he never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he's simply the most overrated player ever.

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ROOKIE HORRY............. starter
ROOKIE PIPPEN............ bench-warmer

2nd YEAR HORRY.......... 2nd-best player on title team & historic clutch performer
2ND YEAR PIPPEN......... bum

3RD YEAR HORRY........... played better in 95' Finals than Pippen ever played
3RD YEAR PIPPEN.......... historic "migraine" choke cost MJ title

FINALS


95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS
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Goat scorers like Curry, Bird or Kyrie had #1 team defenses despite being sub-par defenders themselves because their ability to get buckets allowed GM's to focus on defense. Otoh, the lower scoring ability of secondary producers like Klay or Pippen requires expensive offensive help.. For this reason, the MJ and Kevin Love duo would have better defensive teams than MJ/Pippen because MJ/Love's ability to dominate the scoring allows GM's to get better defensive help (such as rim protection instead of needing spacers for Pippen).

This is why individual defense doesn't matter when comparing 2 non-centers - i.e. there are many ways to skin a cat defensively, so a weaker defender can produce better team defense if his scoring ability allows GM's to focus on defensive help.. Essentially, individual defense is an overrated and even meaningless aspect of comparing 2 non-centers.

Ultimately, the top players on a team must be good scorers, not good defenders.. Defense, passing and rebounding are role player categories, while the ability to carry the "star" category of scoring allows GM's to get better role players.. In a vacuum, great scorers allow better roster construction.

Btw, I've always felt that if you upgraded an unathletic bad defender like Paxson to Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell, this would provide a sufficient defensive upgrade to offset replacing Pippen with Horry (which isn't a massive gap in defense anyway, while Horry brings the clutch/leadership/respect that Pippen lacked)... 3rd year Horry also played better in the 95' Finals than Pippen ever did in 6 Finals (previous post).

Essentially, if you gave Jordan Hakeem's cast, he would have similar dynasty to ones he had with the Bulls.

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DONCIC OR AD. = best 2nd option in NBA

AUSTIN REAVES = best 3rd option, aka the only 20 ppg third option in NBA (20 and 6 APG)[/indent]


^^^^ The Lakers had the best cast in the league last year

Only Lebron's massive negative of -54 plus-minus held the team back.. So the team doesn't need more help - they just need to get rid of Lebron.. He's the problem.

And remember that Lebron lost in the 1st Round with AD in 2024, so having a great defensive big doesn't help Lebron because Lebron is the cancer - he's the common denominator in the bad chemistry - just get rid of LeCancer, so future acquisitions will work out instead of being letdowns and needing more help

i guess it fits right in for russell, your number 2 all time, being most of his career the 4th or 5th producer on the team.....
and with such low fg% even for a bricklayer.

without so many rings, where would he be....

jfc you literally picked Horry's peak series to compare to Pippen.

If you put Pippen on the Jazz and Horry on the Bulls who wins the titles from 96-98?

Well duh, 7 rings, Horry GOAT

Certainly, though Pippen would’ve been a massive upgrade to the garbage the Jazz were running out there from 4-10. Would’ve been enough to beat Seattle in ‘96 and push at least one of the finals to 7 games.

Lol.
Common fact for FG .
I season is often a career for him to push is narrative .

Russell is the only exception to my rankings because he broke the color barrier, so I give him credit for the intangibles required to do that.. Due to the color barrier issue, Russell is impossible to rank, so I basically go chronologically with Russell, Wilt and Kareem at 2, 3, and 4.. I believe that they themselves would be fine with this ranking and rational

You should be pointing out how Pippen never reached peak Horry level ... 0/6 in reaching peak Horry caliber

So the point is that it's a LOW BAR to exceed Pippen - anyone can achieve his pedestrian production...

and if Pippen, Klay or Middleton was averaging 20 on a losing team, no one would know who they were - they would be like Horace Grant's twin brother that averaged 18 ppg for the Wizards - few people know that Horace had a twin brother in the NBA named Harvey Grant that averaged 18 ppg

Ultimately, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, and also never reached peak Horry caliber, yet the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.