Nuts

I would not raise here, BN doesn't have to have anything and the chance that he catches up is not very high. This would be way better if we had position, but without it, I'm calling and then checking Turn. If he checks I'm leading the River; if he bets the Turn then there's real decision.

But also, why limp Preflop? 5s4s is more than strong enough for a raise, and it's not one that wants to play multiway. I would literally never limp behind here, this is a 100% squeeze, imo.

Fold pre twice.

I would flat flop and raise most turns if he bets again.

Assuming this is 1/3 or 2/5 but regardless this is an open fold pre because of rake and definitely folding to the iso raise.

As played, raise flop and make villain fold their overpair if they are capable

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Easiest raise ever.
V is never bluffing when he's cbetting this big.

I don't get why you guys wanna fold a suited connector in the HJ when no one before us has shown any strength. if this is 1-3 with two prior limps, then I'm making it 18. If someone calls, they're playing OOP with a capped range and will have to fold everything below two pair to a triple barrel -- and that's if we don't hit.

For the fold pre guys, you never get out of line? I don’t either, very often & have position when I do. Though I didn’t have relative position this time, I was closing the action with a hand that could flop well in a lot of ways.

So, now Hero also calls the flop bet! Not ready to raise yet.

Pot 175, turn 6s3h7d (6h)
Hero checks, button goes all-in

Hero?

I'm never in this situation because a) I never overlimp the HJ, with 4 people behind it's just too likely that someone raises, b) I'm also not raising 54ss into several limpers and c) I'm not raising 54ss from the HJ and d) If I do get raised to 5bb, I'm snap-pitching this hand for +4bb.

Hero calls. BTN has all the overpairs, A6ss and maybe some other 6x. This looks more like a big overpair than anything else to me, I think 77/76s would slow down on the turn now he's hit the effective nuts.

Your hand doesn't actually flop that well unless its just the nut straight. You're dominated by other 4x, 5x and flushes.

You can get out of line in good spots to do it. Playing bingo isn't one of them.

As played, call.

To me this seems like tournament players or internet theorists, not at all like live cash game players. Fold and that’s it on early streets?

Don’t be offended please no negatives but I honestly think if you play all prim & proper and don’t recognize opportunities to get out of line, I’ll never make a mistake against you.

My thing is people, but now you let me range you perfectly. Again, just the opinion of an old man. I could be wrong, just something to think about.

Best post I've read in here in a while. I'm a bit older as well and I love those guys that talk about theory at the table, they become my instant targets. Easy to bluff and take their theory and use it against them. They litter my south Florida room I play in, keep my winrate up.

It's not that I never get out of line, but I'm not making basic preflop errors like overlimping garbage with 4 people left to act or by flatting garbage out of position for +4bb. The idea that you're going to do that and also never make a mistake against opponents with some understanding of preflop play is laughable.

If you really want to widen your range to remain unpredictable and mysterious, this is the nut worst way to do it - just raise to start with instead of making the same errors as every other passive bingo player in the room.

Fair enough, it's a bluff, so if people don't fold the play isn't profitable. Where I play, there are table dynamics sometimes where everyone calls (it gets more common later in the night), but it's not the norm.

Although if 18 isn't high enough, you can try just raising even larger. I guess at some point the SPR will be too shallow to play this hand profitably. But this also means that if you have something like AK in this situation and you expect 4 callers when you raise to 18, you should just raise to something ridiculous instead, like 25, however high will get you 0-2 callers.

Of course I called and won a big pot

Though I was trying not to give it away, I kinda did in my initial description of villain. I read him easily and let him trap himself. Trying to show the table he’s a force.

Villain knew he was beat when I called and he said you got me & turned over TT. He had overplayed his hand and began to think his 2pair was good. I knew where I was from the start. He just made it easier for me to get the money in.

If you play by the book, I can read it. The guys I have trouble with 3bet wide, 4Bet light, make unexpected plays, could shove at any time. If they have no pattern, it’s hard to read.

Whether you call or raise on the flop is not a consequential decision. Both plays have merit and both plays will win money in the long run. Playing the nuts against a fish who likes his hand is easy.

Calling the turn jam is not a consequential decision. There isn't a single thinking poker player on Earth that would fold in that spot.

There is one consequential decision point in this hand and that is pre-flop. Limp-calling this hand OOP is a losing play. It is leaking money in the long run. It doesn't matter that you made the nuts against an overpair in this instance. It seems like you aren't interested in hearing that, but it is the truth.

First preflop overlimp is prolly a little too loose but I won't hate on it too much if we think we can get away with it. Calling the raise OOP is worse, imo. ETA: I'm all for attempting to get into as cheap pot, but I really limit this to the Button (where I'm playing almost 50% of hands if I think I can get away with it) and somewhat the CO; this idea really starts to plummet in the HJ (way too easy to end up OOP / for one of the ~4 remaining players behind to not allow a cheap flop).

One of the reasons calling the raise preflop is so poor is that our IO are decimated due to being OOP, thanks to the fact that somewhere during the hand we're going to have to show fairly strong strength if we want to play for stacks. With this in mind, I probably just donk the flop fairly large, because overall I think bet/bet/bet for stacks is the least scary line.

As played (i.e. checking), I think I would lean to just calling but then planning to donk most turns. A check/raise is just so damn strong on this board and a lot of villains are going to get away now or facing the follow up turn bet.

ETA: As played, not loving the board pairing but most won't jam a fullhouse here. Looks like a massively overplayed overpair (this dude is the worst player in your pool, imo) or perhaps something like AKhh. So snapping this off and living with results.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Fwiw I also think that folding outperforms calling. I like playing SCs like premium hands, but that doesn't work at all all when you limp-call preflop. In fact I would almost never limp-call in general, not literally never but if I limp behind and get raised I fold like 95% of the time.

Oh I fully understand the truth. In the long run I’m going to lose $15 and be done with it most of the time. I play a hand like this occasionally from the 3 late starting positions. You don’t get many hands that fit - I’m not playing Q6s from the button just because of position.

But suited connectors. suited aces, and little pairs fit the ticket. I fold all those hands UTG. I guess the truth is that I know what I’m doing in this spot, so whatever

Part of me wants to just wish you "good luck" and stop responding. I'm not sure why you made this thread if you know what you're doing here. You just made it to celebrate your win?

The odds of flopping two pair or better are extremely low. Check/folding for $15 over and over and over adds up quickly. Then you can add in all the times you make your big hand and it is still second best (straight under straight, flush under flush, two pair under two pair, trips under trips).

Also: let's say you limp-call for $15 and the flop comes 7c4h2s. You check, the BTN bets $40, and the other limper folds. You're just check/folding there? How about the same spot but it's KsJs2c? What do you do when you flop a naked five-high flush draw OOP?

There is a reason that every single person that responded to this thread has suggested that calling pre is a mistake. I would have no problem overlimping and calling a small raise with a low pair or a suited ace, for what it's worth.

I mean, if all your opponents are just going to hurp durp off $500 stacks with overpairs every single time then maybe preflop isn't horrendous. But most LLSNL players are extremely MUBSy at this stack depth and do everything in their power not to do that. This is one of those hands when after the villain gets up and leaves the rest of the table shakes their head and mutters "wow, what a gift, merry christmas". You're sitting at an awesome table if that happens on a regular basis.

GcluelessgiftgivingnoobG

I think we get to lead this flop in theory. As played a check raise is in order as we have all the strong hands and he possibly has none. We could do this with all sorts of hands like T8 98 A5 65 etc as well as strong hands.

I’m not listening and you’re not listening
All you want to say is it’s -EV and that’s that
.
What I’m trying to say is that I can’t be perceived as a rock, and I must be seen in some pots. I’m not doing this every time. If I’ve been active catching hands, I probably pass on this spot.

But what do you think the rest of the table thought when I show up with this hand. I took another stack from the same villain later with 3kings. He had no idea how far behind he was.

But if I go a couple orbits folding, I’m going to play a hand like this - not every time, not all the time, but sometimes.

Sometimes I think it’s kids on here, not seasoned players. I’ve exhausted trying to explain my position, so just think what you want.

The problem is that your position in this and any number of other threads is that you don't understand basic concepts and have therefore decided that they're not important. Poker isn't about folksy homespun nonsense. It's about math. You believe yourself to be seasoned but are in fact simply old.

I get this, which is why I would have no problem sneaking into a limped pot with 74o on the Button whenever we can. But we're not going to make up what we need to if we make too much of a habit of what we're doing here, imo.

The other real downside that I don't think you're really factoring in is the RIO with this hand (which are worsened OOP and especially if there are field callers and we're not just up against a face up overpair). It's not going to take too many flush over flushes / straight over straights / trips over trips / two pears over two pears / etc. (which we'll mostly be on the losing end with) before the cost of not appearing like a rock becomes too expensive.

GcluelessNLnoobG