Nuts

This is a pretty weird "read" to give, when you are limp calling 5 high.

How often is "most of the time"?
How often do you get back 33x your investment? (and to be fair V had ~8% equity on the turn)

Do you you call it a cooler when all the money gets in on J32TA? Or when V has 77/76 on this board?

Current wisdom is that suited connectors need to make at least 25x your investment ... so this hand is best case outcome and a small (long term) winner.

In general you are talking to us like it's never occurred to us to limp random trash, and/or that we've never done it ... or even that we don't see other players do this kind of thing at low stakes every session.

One of the main reasons I think it's bad to raise flop is that when I see randoms raise this flop then they are often super nutted and rarely bluffing (ofc. bluffing is hard vs. population because guys like this don't even think about the value of TT on the flop/turn, nevermind folding it).

My most recent session at Mohegan 1-2 a guy kept limp+calling 22-99 from pretty much every position, often for absurd amounts and then he'd x/r me on K43 and I'd fold and showing KQ and he'd do it again the next time hoping it worked better. It did work out fine that day, because he hit like 2-3 sets an hour and held vs. AdKd on A75d4d vs. his obvious set on the turn x/r.
I wouldn't call it good though, and certainly not "mixing it up".
I also wouldn't be shocked if he said he "never make a big mistake against me" ... and that's maybe true, but almost every hand was a small one.

He shoved 2.5x pot. If he’s doing this with every overpair we should definitely call pre.

This is the point. Villain was predictable. If he missed, I’m taking it away from him with a bet and 5 high. There’s many ways to win in this spot depending on the runout and reading him better than he does me.

I guess I was wondering who would understand reading the player and who would spout out math or formula or system or -EV

These are the people that never spot the fish and get in pots with them, they follow the chart. No discussion because they never once realized this guy was a common fish.

Ok lol. Can you point to where in the original post you indicated that this player was a big fish? Had you seen him play other hands this poorly? Or you just had a sick read that you didn’t feel like sharing when you made the thread? If anything, you made it seem like he was a good player in your original post.

Do you even read the posts
Young gun, chip skills, just got there
I see so many wannabes that have the look and came to impress - soon to trap themselves
Villain just arrived always excited and ready to gamble. It’s when they are about to leave when they tighten up.
Wide from button - might get fancy
I don’t know how to lay it out better

I had put that ‘I had a really strong read on villain’ but I took that out because I thought it too obvious. It’s hard to describe in writing what I want you to picture.

Maybe this doesn’t register with you
But I find that many, many times the guy that looks the part, talks the talk, handles the chips is actually what we should recognize as a fish.

He greatly wants to impress, blinded by ego and makes aggressive but poor decisions. Maybe some of you are like this, but I am in my wheelhouse when someone like this sits down. Mostly, because they can’t read me at all.

Can’t you see how many options this opens? They bet big to push OMC off his hand, but when I re-raise or shove with any two, they muck saying you’re good. I guess I just know how to react to people like this. I may have been like this at one point thinking I could run over people with aggression.

I think I’m ok on this site now. Just took me a while to realize the hate here. I’m just old, they say with no plan - but I still feel that some of the more mature people here can benefit from my thoughts even if I often throw a wrench into things. No longer bothered by attacks.

Believe me, I listen to everyone of you. I know I have strong opinions, but I’m trying to get better at poker. I will always, for the rest of my life, be trying to get better at poker. If you try to help me, I am thankful. I have already altered my thought process on some spots, from the constructive feedback.

But If you’re just trying to blast me, I don’t care anymore…

Let the viewer decide

another case study in dunning kruger

pre is probably ok

OP plays a crappy hand, flops the world, doesn't know what to do, and insults everyone who tries to tell him he butchered his preflop play.

Live poker is alive and well.

I don't understand how you are easy to play against if you don't limp/call with junk.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking (but too conflict averse to bring up). I believe OP is genuine about the motivation but I doubt the calculation really works out. People just don't range you that well. Theoretically, arguing "well if I do this kind of play then it widens my range so when I have good cards, I am harder to play against because my range is wider" is a coherent argument, but I doubt its value in practice. Especially if we're limp-calling; limp-calling with suited cards is a very typical move for live players, so it's not really much of an update at all.

Also, don't you guys usually play in casinos with 10+ tables? This type of argument would be more applicable if the player pool were very small.

Where I play the pool is much smaller, and I never limp in first, and I almost never limp-call, and I haven't seen much evidence that most people have even picked up on these very obvious patterns. Usually when someone makes a statement about how I play, it's just wrong. Weak players just don't pay that much attention to you, they're just playing their own cards, and if they think they are reading you it's probably an incorrect extrapolation from a few cherry picked hands you happened to play that day.

If it was a limped pot and I had 54s on the button, I might limp behind and then generally fold to a raise. Then you have position multiway and a raise is less likely.

In general, limp/calling with hands like this is typical live donk play.

If you want deception, then raise fairly big with 54s and sometimes bluff postflop, representing JJ or AK. It is probably a losing play, but does make you unpredictable.

I have seen players like villain who buyin for the max and then stack off with an overpair or top pair.

Were we planning on stealing the pot postflop when we overlimped several limpers to what most of the time would create a 7way pot?

And when our mark raised, we're not HU, we're 3ways. It's not impossible to steal pots 3ways, but mostly that's going to need him checking back the flop, a turn card coming that could improve either of our opponents, the other guy checking the turn, and us now having to act on the turn before the raiser reacts to the turn card. It's not impossible to steal here when we mostly have 5 high on the turn with zero equity, but it's a much bigger parlay than you are making it out to be, imo.

GcluelessmultiwaynoobG

Yeah, I have seen players just like that, you guy buys in for $500 at 1/3, stacks off with one pair. Buys in again for $500, stacks off with one pair again and leaves.

Also, 54s in generally considered the nuts in terms of a limp/calling hand. Flop a set, stack someone with an overpair. Easy game.

My point was that people with chip skills are often fish too. Ego driven, predictable, trying to impress - many young guns think they are players, but the mistakes are many.

If you just say ‘fish’ or ‘whale’ it conjures up millions of different images for people. But when it comes to identifying & attacking mistakes, many remain clueless.

If you play suited connectors heads up as a raise/3bet and all the money goes in you are usually against an overpair. If you play suited connectors multiway as a limp/call and all the money goes in you are usually against a bigger flush. Using his specific silly mistake to rationalize your specific silly mistake based on your read of him as a young whippersnapper does not logically follow. This is just nonsense.

You're so incredible you're playing the lowest stake game available. We should all bow down and worship. Poker is very difficult after all when flopping the nuts vs overpairs

Nobody reads op
Mp called the 3Bet ahead of me - it was not heads up. I closed the action. Please bro, I’m hear for discussion - to make people think

I have wisdom in areas other than poker.
Nothing is cut and dried - banter back and forth is good - you know what’s not

What’s right is right, even if nobody’s doing it.
What’s wrong is wrong, even if everybody’s doing it.

I’m here to learn

If villain is gonna blast off with every big pair when you do flop a hand and fold to aggression whenever he has two over cards then I suppose preflop is ok. I didn't get that from the description but if that's a read you're confident in then it should affect your play. The times this hand gets you coolered also need to be accounted for also. They might be rare but occasional 100bb losses definitely affect your ev. I'd be inclined to raise this flop, especially if villain is gonna be a station with JJ-88 and big cards can kill your action.

I think you also need to look in the mirror and consider why some of these responses are being rude to you. They expressed their opinion on the hand and you were immediately like these theory players are fish who keep my win rate up! I knew what he had and I won! He had a big ego and it cost him like all you young chip shufflers!

You sound like the one with the big ego who has no interest in discussing the hand, only celebrating how skilled you are. Or this is a troll. if it is it's a little funny and I applaud you. Wp

Did someone state otherwise?

My last post was with regards to exactly this. i.e. just cuz we have an awesum read on Villain doesn't mean we get to steal the pot from him postflop at a high frequency (because there's still another guy involved who is often going to bung up that plan).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I am sorry I came across that way.
I screwed up this post.
I don’t disrespect anyone here.
That was not my intention.

I was trying to say we look for fish in the wrong places and sometimes the competent looking young gun is pretty fishy. That was my point

I described it poorly

I take this to heart. I’m a very empathetic person. If I caused people to be rude, I’m sorry

I just never have found a good way to disagree on this site. I seek discussion, but why is it bad to have a different opinion from people here. It seems like that would be good.

I just couldn’t get to the point because my hand selection was poor preflop so I must be a moron. It could have been AT or 33 just jumping in with the fish.

Many on this site are like solver mode on a trainer, I don’t like what you did preflop, so I can no longer help you. And then it’s well you won’t listen to what they’re saying, but I hear them loud & clear.

Some of you just throw together a hand on here, but I guess I’ll have to be more mindful with my poker hands moving forward.

It's all good. Let's discuss the hand.
You said when he missed you would be able to take the pot from him with aggression. But how often are you going to be firing bets into hands like he has that he'll get sticky with? Certainly this affects the ev of your preflop call.
And you're completely right that there are many many young fish who are trying to look cool. I may have been one myself many years ago

You know it’s all so fluid Dave. Sometimes it’s just recognizing opportunity. When he starts firing, I know it’s a big pair. If he’s not firing, the board is probably favoring my range. I just think I can outplay him at some point. If things don’t line up right, I drop out.

If you don’t get out of line, then you will give me too much credit when I do.

And thanks for relating to my main point. I was really trying to help some of the young bucks recognize this leak. It’s not about being cool and you can’t force things in poker.

They show up at the casino full of themselves and find themselves spending the rest of the trip digging themselves out of a hole.

I'm not sure what is meant by "if you don't get out of line then you'll give me too much credit when I do". Do you mean they won't bluff enough? Theory bluffs a lot more than most players (depending on the spot of course).
Playing multiway I'd be concerned about this hands inability to flop nutted hands and I'd be more on board with hands like A2s, K8s, 22-55. Those rare times you get coolered flush over flush youd rather be the one on top and it's much easier to flop a set vs an overpair than a straight.
But if you're read is correct that he's gonna check and fold with all his over cards and not bluff or call than you're probably right