Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
A peaceful 2 state solution is anathema to their entire epistemology.
they literally offered a de facto 2 state solution when they came to power in legal and internationally monitored elections and have reiterated it ever since.
The hostages are used as propaganda by the IDF more than anyone. The issue is the widespread concern of a genocide/ethnic cleansing by Israel toward Gaza. Also Pro Netanyahu folk often like to bring up World War II and say hey wait a minute what about the USA bombing Japan and Germany into smithereens. Well the goal there was to end of the war. Far right figures in Israel wan
Thanks for your post. You are the only one so far who wants to engage in some decent debate with me. The rest are a mixture of ad hominem, petty gaslighting and straw-man tactics.
I don't believe that there is any genocide or ethnic cleansing that hasn't been suffered a whole lot more by Jews and Christians, as well as other minority religions in the Middle East. The population of displaced Palestinian Arabs has grown since the 1948 so-called Nakba, it's hardly genocide. People get displaced during wars to avoid getting killed; that's natural. What wasn't natural was the expulsion of around 900,000 Jews from Arab countries, also from 1948 to the present day, with no wars taking place in those countries. They were deemed a security threat and just booted out—some from communities that had existed for hundreds of years. Israel took in as many as they could, while France and the USA took the rest. Did those Arab countries absorb any of the Palestinian refugees in return? Not to my knowledge.
All Jewish presence had been uprooted from Gaza by 2005, even Jewish graves were removed, and Gaza was left to Hamas to govern the area. Any opposition went off the roof, shot first, if they were lucky. I'm not sure about your claim that Israel wants to repopulate Gaza with Jews, though kicking out Hamas would be an understandable priority. I agree that Hamas wouldn't be able to occupy Israel alone, but probably Hezbollah and perhaps the Houthis would have also been involved in a coordinated attack on Israel. If that's the case, they could have engaged Israel in a prolonged attritional war.
I'm not au fait with internal Israeli politics, so I can't comment on Bibi. Any collusion between Hamas and Israel over the October 7 attack seems unlikely to me. It would have to have taken considerable planning and outrageous treachery on Israel's part for it to succeed. Hamas would also have to be complicit in the ensuing Israeli retaliation that would be self-destructive. It all seems pie-in-the-sky, but hey!, we live in a totally dysfunctional World, so who knows?
I've not come across anything to suggest that Palestinians are being deliberately and systematically starved by the IDF, and hardly on the systematic scale perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks on the Christian Armenians. It all comes down to what sources you want to believe, I suppose.
Here's one Israeli blogger who claims the alleged famine is a hoax. Make of it what you will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQx1Qy5Z...
Plenty of Israelis and Palestinians work together or are friends with each other. I have a Palestinian friend who is a member of a Jewish community center in Israel.
The issue is the far right in both Gaza and Israel. The difference is the far right in Israel has the superior military power by a long shot.
Are you talking about Israeli Palestinians? He'd probably also agree that Israel gives him a better standard of life than he ever would in the surrounding Arab countries. It would be interesting to know what his ancestry is, as far back as 1948 at least.
Israel HAS to have a far superior military power, since it is surrounded by hostile enemies who want to destroy it for purely religious reasons.
You are an Orientalist. You see a huge dichotomy between the enlightened west and the primitive east, even though it's the opposite as measured by body count.
Your comments follow an old script.
You are pea-shooting from the shrubbery and none if it's true. If you want to engage in some worthwhile debate, you're welcome, but ad hominems and straw-man tactics won't cut it.
No it hasn't. Israeli policy has always been premised on the seizure of Palestinian land and, as a pretext for this, the denial of the existence of any such people as the Palestinians, so that, once they are finally 'disappeared', an aim which the Israelis are increasingly blatant about, the Israelis can put their hands in their pockets and walk away whistling and claim that no
A homeland has been offered multiple times to the Palestinians; It's been rejected multiple times...
No it hasn't. Israeli policy has always been premised on the seizure of Palestinian land and, as a pretext for this, the denial of the existence of any such people as the Palestinians, so that, once they are finally 'disappeared', an aim which the Israelis are increasingly blatant about, the Israelis can put their hands in their pockets and walk away whistling and claim that nothing happened.
Can you provide a source for this policy? What exactly is "Palestinian land" or "Palestinians"? It could be argued that there's never been a Palestinian state. It was an insignificant area of the Ottoman Turkish empire that Britain inherited from the league of nations as the "Palestine Mandate"
The 'rejection' you mention probably relates to Arafat's rejection of Israel's proposal to annexe East Jerusalem as part of Clinton's supposed deal, which Clinton wanted to promote for vanity and 'legacy' reasons. Since Jerusalem is the Palestinian capital, this proposal was obviously a performance for Clinton's benefit and was intended to be rejected, because the Israelis will never accept a Palestinian state except at gunpoint. And, with Israel's catastrophic loss of political and moral credibility over the Gaza war, and the need of Western democracies to respond to their multiracial voters' revulsion at what Israel is doing, it may even come to that. At present France is going to recognise Palestine and the UK, despite imposing time-limited conditions for internal political reasons, is likely to follow. That would be two of the five permanent UNSC members.
No I mean multiple times. It's obvious that the eternal war against the jews and Israel is religiously motivated. It absolves the jihadists of the need to reference any basic human moral compass they might have.
Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ😉 said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Earthly considerations such as territories are hardly going to matter when the prophet's commands are clear.
Israel is the only country in the world that faces existential destruction not just from any political or cultural issues, but by an overarching religious obligation. No moral compass is needed, only a hatred that has been indoctrinated in the individual by religious psychopaths. The result was October 7. Hamas is fighting to the last woman and child.
Still no defense of or excuse for Israels actions and the horror being inflicted on Palestinians.
Might have been a good reason for Netanyahu not to have supported hamas in the first place. And you should welcome an enquiry into any security failures over October 7.
Even more pertinent. Hamas is adamant they won’t disarm. Declaring a Palestinian state with Hamas turning into a state within a state militia like Hezbollah in Lebanon is a non stater.
Will Israel disarm or retain its right to shoot kids across the border? Cognitive dissonance strong today.
Israel is the only country in the world that faces existential destruction not just from any political or cultural issues, but by an overarching religious obligation. No moral compass is needed, only a hatred that has been indoctrinated in the individual by religious psychopaths. The result was October 7. Hamas is fighting to the last woman and child.
I think Iran might disagree.
Will Israel disarm or retain its right to shoot kids across the border? Cognitive dissonance strong today.
Are these the "children" you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1vH2H6o...
What do you want? Pics of some of the thousands of young kids murdered by the IDF?
You've come a long way since "I'm just the rookie on this thread", which was all of two days ago.
Obvious Israel propagandist.
What do you want? Pics of some of the thousands of young kids murdered by the IDF?
You've come a long way since "I'm just the rookie on this thread", which was all of two days ago.
Obvious Israel propagandist.
If you've got any such photographs from a reliable source, I'd like to see them.
Yes, I am a forum rookie, but I'm not a rookie on the subject of Israel and Palestine. I've never actually discussed the subject on any forum until this week. I'm not an Israel propagandist; I just want to see a solution in the Middle East that is acceptable to everyone. You should be able to realise that it's not going to happen when religious psychopaths like Hamas and Hezbollah are in the frame.
You didn't answer my questions either.
A homeland has been offered multiple times to the Palestinians; It's been rejected multiple times...
This just isn't true. Israel has never offered a state. The closest was under Rabin. But the Rabin offer did not include an end to the occupation of the West Bank or Muslim sovereignty over al Aqsa. Rabin bragged to the Knesset that the proposal was for "something less than a state."
Fatah laid down its arms for a state but got bupkis.
Here's a video that suggests that it is Hamas itself that is intercepting aid that is meant for the Palestinians. The relevant section starts at 4:35. As well as Arab countries that are demanding that Hamas give up its arms.
You should be able to realise that it's not going to happen when religious psychopaths like Hamas and Hezbollah are in the frame.
lol
This just isn't true. Israel has never offered a state. The closest was under Rabin. But the Rabin offer did not include an end to the occupation of the West Bank or Muslim sovereignty over al Aqsa. Rabin bragged to the Knesset that the proposal was for "something less than a state."
Fatah laid down its arms for a state but got bupkis.
The whole Aqsa thing is kind of wild.
Aqsa was basically a place in the Koran where Mohomod did some magical stuff (I dont remember what exactly), but it wasn't linked to any physical place on Earth, and there was some scholarly debate whether it existed on Earth at all, or some other plane.
Anyways, at some point there was a powerful Muslim king guy, who wanted to have an Islamic holy place in his kingdom. But he didn't control Mecca or Medina, but he did control Jerusalem; which was already an important religious place in Judaism and Christianity. So he kind of just decided Jerusalem was Aqsa and built a mosque right on top of where the Jewish temple had been.
Interestingly, he manufactured it into a big deal during his reign, but during the Ottoman reign (who were more secular and didn't pay very much attention to Jerusalem at all) it kind of lost most of its importance in the Islamic world. Jews were banned from going there to pray at their temple out of principle (the principle being Islam as an Apartheid religion, where dhimni need to stay in their lane). But other than that, no one in the Islamic world cared about Aqsa.
In fact, during this period Muslims were actually a minority in Jerusalem, as it just wasn't a very important place to them; as opposed to Jews and Christians where Jerusalem maintained religious significance throughout the Ottoman reign.
In fact, in a 1944 census only 160,000 people lived in Jerusalem; with the breakdown roughly 97,000 Jewish and approx 30,000 Christian and Muslim each. And this is in spite of most of the people living in greater Israel/Palestine being Muslim.
It wasn't until 1948 and Israel's creation that Aqsa was re-invneted as this significant holy place the Jews had desecrated. And became a rallying cry for Muslims around the world to reconquer Aqsa in the name of Allah.
And here we are.
Here's a video that suggests that it is Hamas itself that is intercepting aid that is meant for the Palestinians. The relevant section starts at 4:35. As well as Arab countries that are demanding that Hamas give up its arms.
Welcome TGcomments. I just want to make sure you understand that the posters you’re attempting to engage have been posting lies and disinformation for close to 2000 pages now, completely without shame. So I’m not sure what kind of intelligent discussion you hope to have, but good luck.
This just isn't true. Israel has never offered a state. The closest was under Rabin. But the Rabin offer did not include an end to the occupation of the West Bank or Muslim sovereignty over al Aqsa. Rabin bragged to the Knesset that the proposal was for "something less than a state."
Fatah laid down its arms for a state but got bupkis.
I'm not sure if Israel can "offer" any such thing. I'm also a bit perplexed as to how the Palestinian people can accept or refuse an offer from a country that it doesn't believe should exist in the first place. To accept or reject such an offer from Israel would give it legitimacy. It looks like a bit of a non-sequitur to me.
This is a cop out. You really think IDF/Israel can't do better? The aid situation is a joke. And by IDF's own admissions, Israel is pretty damn good at counting the calories going into Gaza. Right now, by design or by willful neglect, IDF/Israel for certain knows too few calories are going in.
Their own truck counts and airdrops of aid say there isn't enough aid going in.
And the GHF program is a massive joke. I could excuse a few days of incompetence given the scale and novelty of the operation. But at this point, you have to be utterly and willfully blind to not see IDF/Israel have chosen to deliver aid ineffectively because, at the best, they simply don't care or, at the worst, they actually want Palestinians to die.
This is to say nothing of the increasing disregard for civilian deaths.
October 7th justifies a lot, and I really do mean a LOT, of collateral damage to Gazan civilians. But it is not, and cannot, be a blank check to inflict unnecessary cruelty on the Palestinian people.
That is even if you believe the only permanent solution is to remove the Palestinians from Gaza.
