Israel/Palestine thread

Fatah accepted the existence of Israel decades ago. You are woefully uninformed about the Oslo process.

It's (b), and I think we all know it's (b). Starve Gaza while kidding the US along with a bit of performative nonsense. As the far-right tail is wagging the Israeli dog, that's policy. The anger over the crimes of Oct 7, and the refusal to tolerate Hamas as a neighbour any more, are understandable, but this is something else. It's ethno-nationalists trying to achieve their historic dream of 'making the Arabs go away'. Why they aren't ashamed to be thinking, speaking and acting in the same terms in which Heydrich addressed the Wannsee Conference, **** knows. But they aren't.

In 1936, you had the Peel Commission plan rejected by the Arabs
In 1948, the Arabs rejected the partition plan under the British Mandate
In 2000, Arafat rejected the Camp David proposals
In 2008, another offer of land-for-peace was rejected by the Palestinian leadership.

What is clear is that at no time did the Palestinian leadership INITIATE any proposals to find peace. What you are avoiding is that Pan-arab forces attempted to destroy Israel in 1948 but failed, thus creating the Nakba, but I suppose that was all Israel's fault.

*They tried again in 1967 but got their asses kicked again, even more emphatically.
*They tried again in 1973 with initial surprise and success, but eventually got their butts kicked again.
*They tried again in 2024 with an attempted coordinated attack with Hezbollah and the Houthis, resulting in the current catastrophe that was no doubt all Israel's fault
*They have had 2 intifadas over extended years-long periods to make life as uncomfortable as possible for Israel.

So to me, it seems that those who represented the Palestinians at the time, be it the PLO or Hamas, were not being proactive in finding a solution, but when one was presented, it was promptly rebuffed. At no time can you argue that the Palestinian leadership were proactively engaging in any serious discussion on how to find a mutual solution for the sake of peace in our time.

On the contrary, and in the interim, you had at least 3 attempts to annihilate Israel and wipe it off the map. I don't count the last one really, since it was only an attempt to butcher and utterly dehumanise as many innocent jews as possible, so maybe an incursion not exactly a war. All that leads me to think that the Palestinian leadership were not engaging in serious discussions on how to resolve the conflict, but to exhaust any attempts at reconciliation and to buy time to launch the next attempt perpetrating genocide against the Jewish people.

So don't give me any BS about the Mickey-Mouse Oslo accords. It has no significance since it is just another attempt by jihadists to exhaust, undermine, frustrate and eventually obliterate the Jews and Israel. Sounds like fun to you, right?

right. and some in this thread have been saying it since October 2023 and eaten a ton of bans for it.

but I do disagree with these 2 points

USA is fully involved and helping or directing the mass murder.

its not just the far right. their entire society, save for a negligible number of dissidents, is genocidal to the core.

I doubt either of us knows Israel well enough to be sure of that, but it may be that the 'liberal' faction is only interested in appearances, and there is probably a reason why the far-right is now dominant and the 'liberals' don't really have much to say. (Because the whole project would collapse if they denied the right to make the Arabs go away or 'disappear'.)

You can look at opinion polls on the matter, or actual leftist Israeli posters who post in defence of ethnic cleansing believing there to be no choice.

0:30 - 4:55 Another debunking of the pro-Hamas starvation lie-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uu9moeC...

and from 2:53 - 3:40 here-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kQUSAYm...

But then again, it's all pro-Israeli propaganda, right?

Anyway, as I was sayin!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsC8IK4c...

Hasbara is strong with this one. Sorry, I mean “toda’a”.

Youre really not doing your side any favours by making it seem that's your level

And what do you think the "project" is? It seems pretty clear to me the project is to thrive with viable borders, which is the same project as every other nation. Israel just has to work a lot harder to get there.

And towards this end, the nations/groups that have been willing to make peace, Israel has made peace with. And the groups which refuse to make peace Israel seems to be shifting from a strategy of containment to a strategy of overwhelming force.

Will it work? I really dont know. But I think it is a mistake to start thinking/acting in terms of left wing activism; with are bad faith an inaccurate.

-This British guy (I would assume Jewish, dont really know) is reporting from a GHF site doing PR for Israel. Now, if you want to believe it is all Hasbara lies, that is your prerogative. But the point is that Israel does not accept that the aid situation is a **** show. The Israel narrative is that aid is getting in; but there is a lot of bad faith negative reporting from outlets like BBC, and a lot of aid being stolen by Hamas.

The reason Palestinians were are lining up for hours for GHF aid is that unlike UN aid it is actually being handed out to people and not taken by guys with machine guns to be sold on the black market. And most of the "reporting" on bread line massacres is straight up lies.

I appreciate that. Civilized people, especially us Americans should be able to have civilized discussions about foreign events. I could understand a Palestinian or Israeli getting emotional about this issue.

Well practically all groups of people have faced hardships and have also engaged in acts of violence or cruelty. I mean there’s prisons in every country after all so there’s bad people in every group. And Muslims have also been discriminated against they’ve been expelled from some number of Catholic countries. Like in Spain after the reconquista in 1492… Muslims, along with Jews were told you’re gonna have to convert to Christianity or leave. The point is that here in 2025 folks should strive to do good. If we talk about things like reparations or what this or that group did x years ago ….well pretty much everyone in the world has ancestors who did good things or bad things.

Currently Jordan has a huge number of refugees of their country. About 2 million of their refugees are Palestinian.

To the point about 2005 well we go back to 1948 with this conflict with many bad events occurring on both sides. Palestinians were indeed kicked out by Zionists since 1948 in large Numbers so again this thing goes both ways. You see a lot of Arab Jews left their countries some were kicked out by the Arab authorities Since the formation of the Zionist state . It’s also interesting that there’s like 15k or 20,000 Jews still living in Iran Some serving in their countries police and military…. There’s still a lot of Jews living in Turkey. All of this by the way is a different topic from the origins of Hamas and the IDF decision to take extreme military action in Gaza. It is interesting nonetheless.

And when we talk about Hamas, we always have to talk about its origin. How are they allowed to grow? Why does Ron Paul and other people say that Israeli officials funded Hamas in the late 1980s to allow it to grow. I mean, it is interesting when you look at the PLO and it’s secular nature how they were inclusive of Christians in the 20th century …more than a few Christians were actually leaders in the Arab resistance against Israel. Now think about what a Islamic fundamentalist Hamas would look like to the western Christian world. Well a westerner is a lot less likely to be sympathetic to an Islamic fundamentalist group compared to a secular Christian inclusive Palestinian group. There you go.

There are powerful figures on the Israeli right who are public about wanting to depopulate Gaza and fill it up with Jewish settlers.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/29/israeli-ministers-join-gathering-calling-for-rebuilding-settlements-in-gaza

Al Jazeera

Israeli ministers join gathering calling for resettlement of Gaza

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl

CNN

Israel’s far-right wants to move Palestinians out of Gaza. Its ideas are gaining attention | CNN

And frankly, whatever Israel does it’s their decision, but they cannot whine and complain about “antisemitism” if they are going to de populate Gaza and bring in Jewish settlements. Now this of course is depending on if the far right in Israel gets what they want so we will see about that. Obviously no matter what they have a huge problem with the number of Palestinian civilians killed, which even the IDF acknowledges.

They already have a situation in Israel which is weird and counterproductive. They don’t go out of their way to recruit Arabs or have a mandatory military service for Muslim/Christian Israelis like they do with Israeli Jews. It will be interesting if Netanyahu would bring on Muslim Israelis who serve the IDF at his press conferences, but I don’t see him doing that. It’ll be interesting if the Israeli media had a concerted effort to show many many Muslim Israelis serving the military loving Israel. I think it will be an interesting and good tactic, but I don’t see it at all. Maybe there’s a reason for that which doesn’t live up to a moral standard. What I’m specifically saying by the way is that Netanyahu should physically bring Muslim Israelis who serve his military to his press conferences . Obviously there’s not many Muslims in the IDF , but reportedly there are some. He needs to physically show it. He needs to do more to show how Israel respects Islam and they are not bigots. The problem here is that Netanyahu has for example lied about World War II claiming Hitler got the idea of the holocaust from the grand mufti of Jerusalem the total fabrication. kind of disrespectful to the holocaust too. fax showed that about 15,000 Muslims actually fought for the axis forces over 1 million Muslims fought for the Allied forces in World War II. And also part of the problem is that the far right in Israel ran and rave about how bad Islam is it’s a despicable tactic and that’s not something that a morally upright country does. Even if they know that there’s people on the other side who hate Judaism their response to that is to show how they are better than that. You see this is why it’s probably better for the image of Israel to have a change in leadership in that country. They have a terrible image problem in Israel and it is the fault of their government.

I mean, you know that with Israel, interfaith marriages cannot be performed or recognized by the state. The marriages have to be performed outside of the country. That’s also a problem. Whereas in a few of the Muslim majority countries there is interfaith marriage, performed in the country and recognized by the state. Plenty of them don’t do that but a few do, that’s interesting. Also Jews in Israel should attempt to win over Christian and Muslim Arabs to join the Jewish faith. But a lot of Jewish people in Israel don’t want to do that so that’s another problem. They could do it in a friendly manner. It’s just an interesting idea that’s all.

And also it is very difficult for a non-Jew to immigrate to Israel. Again, these are their choices. But They cannot complain when people criticize it

Well it is reasonable to look at October 7 to realize that for example Gaza is only 44 miles away from Tel Aviv. We’re talking about the most monitored area in the world. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be direct contact between the IDF and Hamas there could be rogue officials within Israel, who simply looked the other way on October 7. That is a reasonable situation. It is not an outlandish conspiracy theory. And again, knowing the military capability of the IDF how they are able to have precision attacks against Iran and target 1400 miles away. But yet it takes them six hours to have a military response to October 7. It just doesn’t make any logical sense. To this point, there is no doubt that with a group like Hamas or Al-Qaeda there are vicious, evil people who join these organizations at the low level. But we need to look at the top tier of these organizations. Where do they get their money from? what truly drives them??

And so the issue is does Israel actually want to end this war or are they trying to keep it going as long as possible to either kill as many Palestinians as possible or forced the people of Gaza to leave Gaza and go to a different country. That is a genuine concern. Sure not all people in Israel are not every Jew wants this to happen. The issue is the far right wing in Israel, which has political and military power. Will they prevail and get what they want if they get what they want then there would surely be a population displacement of the people of Gaza. We’ve already effectively had some level of a population displacement of the people of Gaza to the sheer numbers of those killed by the IDF. The question is how much longer will this war go on. There is clearly a food issue in Gaza. The reports and visual evidence is plentiful. I mean, as you know, perhaps the Israeli forces control the Gaza airspace and the maritime activities by Gaza.

You talk about Hezbollah …they are at their weakest ever. Just look at how their leadership structure and a bunch of their membership has been wiped out by the IDF. Look at the Arab countries surrounding Israel they’re doing nothing to attack Israel. They could but they’re not doing it. This isn’t the 1960s anymore it’s 2025 Israel’s main enemy is pretty much Iran and it’s allies in Yemen and Lebanon, which currently as we could all see do not have the sort of military power needed to do anything of any substance to Israel otherwise they would’ve already done it. Israel‘s existence is not threatened. They are nuclear armed they have been backed up by democrat and Republican lead administrations in the USA. Biggest of all they are nuclear armed. The only question I believe is how history will record them and a lot of that has to do with their current government administration which a lot of people would say is evil. Now perhaps a few years or decades down the road they will have a better government administration, and they can recover some of their image in history.

Perhaps to the point that some people believe that Israel is being treated unfairly. I mean, how often do we hear that people who are pro Netanyahu say “hey people are picking on Israel, people are singling out Israel, oh this criticism is only happening because Israel is a Jewish state.”

Let’s look at that.

Well, I don’t think so because when you look at how the mass media in the west reacted to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, it was with sheer hatred of Russia. Have you ever seen a Russian general or a pro Russia person given airtime by CNN or Fox. I’ve never seen it. Also just look at how Syria under Assad was treated by the western press basically as brutal monsters for the civil war in Syria and they were fighting ISIL. I don’t think any of us could recall a Syrian general in the Syrian Armed Forces being given any kind of airtime by the Western media..

So Israel might be criticized by some of the podcasts and western citizens , they might get some negative press coverage by CNN or MSNBC at times.

but the IDF officers and Israeli politicians are being given airtime by left-wing CNN and right wing Fox News. There is no unfair treatment on the grand scale there.

Well, my friend is a Palestinian from Bethlehem, who has traveled to places like Tel Aviv and has gone to Jewish community centers there. He is not a citizen of Israel. Anyway, larger point there’s tons of Muslims and Jews who get along with each other all over the world.

And your second paragraph was responded to in my last post.

Some of the Jewish parents in Israel also instill hatred into their kids. We saw in the thread videos posted showing Jewish parents bringing their kids along to the Gaza border to destroy food supplies that we’re going into Gaza.

By the way, I know that you’re attempting to sort of show Islam/Quran in a negative light. Here’s the thing religion is followed by people differently. There are people from practically every religious group in the world who do good things or bad things and then say well you know what my religion told me to do it. Bottom line is you’re gonna find people who are against Jews who say hey you know that the Torah allows Jewish men to marry three year-old girls. They will even provide a quote from Jewish scriptures that is of course taken out of context or perhaps misunderstood. They will talk about things from the Torah that claim that According to Jewish scripture Jesus is burning in feces. And there’s plenty of other things my point is that if somebody is against Jews they will miss characterize the Torah and take things out of context just like people who are against Muslims will do with the Quran. That’s a bad tactic. It’s not helping anyone.

I’m not saying you’re doing this, but let’s just be aware that it’s out there

You might want to consider this before going any further. Blaming Israel might make you feel better, but the facts on the ground are different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFfnbd0u...

BTW. I've responded to your post on the Amanda Knox forum. I was patient and informative. I won't be so polite the next time.

You were in no way informative you just repeated yourself and engaged in your usual patented dishonesty lol.

Thanks for your comments above and below. You've made many points, so it would be difficult to address them all. I'll summarise and get back to you.

This is bizarre. Israel does't go out of its way to recruit for the military at all, because it has a conscription military. For political reasons it cant even conscript far right Jews. Conscripting Sunni Muslim Arabs is a giant political snake pit and complete non starter. And there is some voluntary service by far right Jews and non Jews (mainly Druze) and the govt and media absolutely makes a deal out of this. Or I wouldn't know about it. Do you actually follow Israeli media at all?

Netanyahu lying about the Grand Mufti had about as much impact as all of Trump's random lies. Which is to say none*. And left wing Israel media was the first people to point it out. That being said, the leadership of the Pan Arab nationalist movements of the late 19th-early 20th century, including the Grand Mufti, were very much sympathetic towards fascism, Nazi Germany and the Holocaust; and Egyptian, Baathist and Palestinian nationalism was originally fashioned and sympathetic towards Italian/German fascist nationalism.

*Even though the idea of the Holocaust didn't originate from the Grand Mufti, he was an avid antisemite and Holocaust supporter for his whole life, including his exile in Egypt and Lebanon in later years, so you probably dont want to carry too much water for this guy.

Also, it isn't human nature to worry about image when soldiers and hostages are still dying, and you are still running to bomb shelters occasionally at night. And this has been going on for almost 2 years. I think you have a poor understanding of human psychology if you think the normal response to this kind of situation is to worry about your image.

Israel is by far the most liberal nation in the MENA. You can cherry pick issues and countries where Israel is less liberal on specific issues; but this isn't some kind of gotcha. And the Israeli left is very critical of issues like interfaith marriage where they aren't very liberal.

My understanding is Jews dont prostelyze at all, and this is a very fundamental part of their religion that has existed for thousands of years. So you are basically suggesting a major reformation of the religion, which is probably not reasonable. And if I was going to pick a religion that needs a major reformation so its adherents join the 21st century, there is a very specific one that is much, much, much higher up on the list than Judaism.

Fatah are not jihadists, they are the PA. You are dense.

None of your comments show that Rabin offered a state during Oslo.

What happened to the "just asking questions" shtick?

this **** is so funny and pathetic