GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

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People are finally waking up to the fact that 80's Jordan was the goat athlete and the GOAT:

There are only 2-3 great athletes among today's All-NBA selections - Giannis and Ant - but Jordan's era had Dominique, Clyde, Barkley, MJ, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Pippen, Kemp - this is all from 1994.. So today's athletes aren't better.. Guys like Karl Malone and Derrick Coleman are also superior.. KJ, Grant Hill, Penny and more

All you are saying is that bball was so bad in the 80s/90s, as long as you were athletic you were probably going to be one of the better player.

But today, that's not enough to be good. You actually have to be good at basketball. Otherwise you're just a Kaminga.

Also, saying GA isn't an athlete is a pretty bad take.

I'm also curious to know how you know who is and isn't athletic when you don't watch any basketball.

Here's the 98 squads. I'm picking today's team if we are talking athletes every day of the week over these guys.

FIRST TEAM
• F: Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
• F: Karl Malone, Utah Jazz
• C: Shaquille O’Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
• G: Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls
• G: Gary Payton, Seattle SuperSonics

SECOND TEAM
• F: Grant Hill, Detroit Pistons
• F: Vin Baker, Seattle SuperSonics
• C: David Robinson, San Antonio Spurs
• G: Tim Hardaway, Miami Heat
• G: Rod Strickland, Washington Wizards

THIRD TEAM
• F: Scottie Pippen, Chicago Bulls
• F: Glen Rice, Charlotte Hornets
• C: Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta Hawks
• G: Reggie Miller, Indiana Pacers
• G: Mitch Richmond, Sacramento King

So what lol

Lebron had 20ppg over his second option, twice ( one of those in a final meaning a not so bad team I suppose ?) , and u still claim he can’t carry the scoring load ….

Funny how u complain about LeBron losing with bums but it’s ok for mj not even having 30 ppg and loose with bums …

Nah.
It’s the same .
They all need a decent second option which obviously aren’t those names u like to quote like mo or any other bs like that …
Pippen was a decent 2nd option at the time for mj.

Mo, would of never been a good decent second option , in any era ….
Dwade being better then pippen or not isn’t important .
It’s about comparing what makes sense which you clearly lack in every post u make .

^^^ great athletes from that list include Shaq, MJ, Hill, Robinson, and Pippen (Malone possibly too)

great athletes from 2025 All-NBA'ers include Giannis, SGA, Ant, and 59-year old Lebron (it's generous to include LeFossil)

So 1998 was better.

Maybe pick another year, since 98' and 94' that we've looked at thus far destroy today's game.

I'm not the one that said it - it's Arenas, Teague, Nick Young, Shaq and NBA pro players from all eras that said MJ is the goat athlete - see the videos posted above.

The reason that WestBrick had 30/10/10 seasons with the worst jumper of all-time is because today's beginner format has wide open lanes that allow a driving game to easily offset a broke jumper..

Otoh, if you look at Oscar Robertson highlights, he mostly scored by shooting mid-range over packed paints, since 2-pointer basketball had no spacing.. The 80's and 90's had packed paints as well, so the best scorers REQUIRED shai-level mid-range as a floor - the stats from 97' and 98' show this.. They show that the mid-range volume/efficiency of the best scores dwarfs SGA's, since more jumpshooting was required in absence of today's spacing and driving lanes.. To summarize - the packed paints and hands-on nature of perimeter defense in prior eras forced players to have great jumpshooting to be good scorers - there weren't any guys that mostly drove the ball like today's game where WestBrick, Lebron and Giannis live off driving the ball and have broke jumpers..

Infact, Lebron said that he can't pull-up going right, or he still has major problems with it after 22 years of pro ball.. Anyone can see his hitch and discomfort while moving the ball into his shooting pocket after a right-hand drive - this is beginner stuff after 22 years.. Meanwhile, Giannis' jumpshot is even worse - far worse - it looks like a beginner, i.e. he can't jump and get in shooting form at the same time - he has to get in shooting form first and THEN jump, aka beginner trash that affords opposing coaches the rare luxury of sagging off and clogging the paint/lanes.

Meanwhile, fatty doughboys like Luka and Jokic achieve all-time production rates and say that today's NBA format is a joke compared to international formats (old school formats).

So as usual, you're wrong on many levels... Btw, Kuminga averaged 21 in a playoff series and was the leading scorer over Jimmy Butler, while coming off the bench... This is well above-average, and it shows an ascension that typically occurs around this age.

but lebron LOST, so he never successfully carried the scoring load.

Lebron lost the 09' ECF because his 38 ppg was too ball-dominant, in addition to being horrific in clutch-time and therefore giving up 3 fourth quarter leads,

His ball-dominance has never beaten top teams at high scoring levels, so he's never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from sidekick).

MJ learned to carry weak help over top teams, while Lebron never did - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team or Finals team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

MJ's skillset had the capacity to grow out of the losing chemistry because he was always phenomenal at scoring off screens and quickly became a great jumpshooter.. Since his skillset was amenable to ball movement and the top offensive schemes, he simply needed to have a long enough tenure with a cast to build chemistry.

^^^ that's where you're wrong because Lebron couldn't win with 2nd options like Mo or Jamison, so he got 1st options and franchise players from other teams like Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Luka and AD.. So Lebron needed 1st options and couldn't win with 2nd options... Otoh, guys like Curry, Duncan and Mj could, and are therefore superior players

Furthermore, the list of Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Luka and AD represents 6 first options and franchise players, so it's the most help ever.. Yet he only won 60 games once in 15 seasons with these guys (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Luka and AD).

Zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch.. Mo wasn't a low producer and was already at 17 PPG and 17 PER prior to Lebron, which remained the same in 09' and decreased in 10'.

Lebron can't develop young players because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter... Specifically, he increases everyone's assisted buckets (assisted rate), aka spot-up role, which craters their assists and creates low assist teams.. The low assist teams matter because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assist... Since low team assists is the cause or catalyst in every loss, it's bad that Lebron's skillset craters everyone's assists (by turning them into spot-up shooter/increasing their assisted rate).

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Recent thread cliffs

Lebron needed to join 1st options and franchise players from other teams and couldn't win with 2nd options like Hughes, Zydrunas, and Jamison, or even perfect fits like Mo.. Mo's spacing added 21 wins and provided the blueprint for GM's going forward (spacing).. Since Lebron needed 1st options, he's inferior to guys that could win with 2nd options like Curry, Duncan and MJ.

Secondly, the reason that WestBrick had 30/10/10 seasons with the worst jumper of all-time is because today's beginner format has wide open lanes that allow a driving game to easily offset a broke jumper.. This is similar to Giannis and Lebron achieving great stats with weak jumpers, while fatboys like Luka/Jokic laugh at the NBA's easier format compared to international formats.

Not sure I'd be calling old Pippen, Malone, Robinson and Jordan "great athletes" compared to Mitchell, Cade & Mobley.

So did MJ , with worst stats and less carry load …..

Mj never carried a bad team and won a title …

The rest is pure fiction in your head so I won’t speak about it .

Nah they never were even decent has second option , because they never won anything and never did anything worthwhile elsewhere without LeBron Â…

Just an example.
2005 Washington .
Great players in larry Hughes and Jamison playing together right ?
Jamison , one of his few AS good year with Larry Hughes , peak years , what happpen ?
Totally got swept lol in eastern conference with Gilbert arena Â….

Yup they are amazing Â….

To be fair….lebron never won with a bunch of nobodies either to say so is disingenuous.

MJ carried weaker offensive help than Mo and weaker defenses over better teams:

09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic'.............. 18 on 38%........ #3 team defense

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs................. 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat................. 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers.............. 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz'.................. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs.............. 18 on 41%....... #1, #4, #9 defenses

Don't pretend you can't read...

That's literally what he did for all 6 titles - the stats show that he carried his team, and more than anyone else ever has.. The numbers show that his titles were bigger carry-jobs than 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk - don't make me post the numbers again.. Jordan also won many titles with the worst efficiency and clutch ever from a sidekick, while carrying the biggest scoring burden ever..

The cast from Jordan's 1st three-peat averaged the least ppg in the league (or close to it) and less than all playoff opponents, while also having no rim protection, low rebounding rank, and inferior defenses than all ECF and Finals opponents (except the Suns)..

So the Bulls the least help on both sides of the ball, or close to it.

According to "Thinking Basketball", the cast of the 91-93' Bulls was worse than 25% of casts (7 of 28 teams), which is all 2nd Round opponents and therefore a 1st Round production level from the cast... And the 2nd three-peat casts were even worse (lottery cast production level).

The truth hurts that Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team or Finals team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never carried weak help over top teams..

Carry-jobs against top teams require high scoring levels AND a great brand of ball, so Lebron's ball-domination can't successfully carry the load against top teams, while MJ's off-ball ability allows him to drop 40 while the ball moves and therefore succeed at carrying the scoring load.

Dunks

25' Cade................. 39
25' Mitchell............ 16
25' SGA................... 46

98' Jordan............... 89
98' Pippen.............. 60 (missed 35 games)
98' Robinson........ 135
98' Malone............. 60
98' Hill.................... 79
98' Kemp................ 99 (166 in 97')

You simply haven't watched any of these 90's guys, so you don't know what you're talking about.

Again, the great athletes from today's All-NBA teams are Giannis, Ant, and Mobley, which doesn't compare with 98' Shaq, MJ, Robinson, Hill, Pippen, or Malone, while 1994 destroys today's athletes even more.

18 on 38% from Mo is the same thing that Jordan won with from Pippen, while the Cavs had better team defense as well.

LeChoke simply stunk in clutch-time of the 09' ECF and tricked off 3 fourth quarter leads by having the worst-ever TO's and brickcity in clutch-time, and bad defensive decisions.

They never played more than 2-3 years with another star, while Lebron got 15 seasons with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, AD and Luka - that's 6 franchise players, and therefore the most help ever.. No one else in history played with so many other franchise players and 1st options.

It means that Arenas is close to Lebron since they both lost in the 2nd Round with Jamison - 05 Arenas and 10' Lebron both lost with Jamison in Round 2.

It shows how overrated Lebron is.. The 05' Wizards lost in the 2nd Round like Lebron in 06', 08' and 10'... Lebron was the king of 2nd Round losses pre-decision.. He was an overrated bum that was historically locked up or upset for 5 straight years in the 07-11' Playoffs.

Number of Dunk = athleticism is pretty funny.

Also, not posting that Mobley (on my list) had more dunks than anyone in the 98 list is even funnier (192).

You really can't put together an honest post.

When you pretend that dunking isn't correlated with athleticism, it shows how badly you lost this debate and fell for a fraud.. Is there a single point that you've been right about?.. You just compared Cade athletically to David Robinson - that's what you argued.. That's how bad you lost.

All the best athletes in history crush the dunk stats, such as Blake Griffin, Kemp, Shaq, Giannis, Lebron, MJ, etc (we have Jordan's dunk stats from 88-93' and he was at 152 in 88' - best-ever for a guard, and 87' was even more).

You simply don't realize that Lebron will be a massive punchline after he retires - people associate Lebron with endless playoff catastrophes and needing more help (the neediest player ever) more than they associate him with a few manufactured titles that occur more rarely than any other top 10 candidate.

I would expect today's players to outdunk previous eras because the driving lanes are so wide that bricklayers like Westbrick, Giannis and Lebron can still dominate..... or fatboys like Jokic and Luka.

And yet despite the beginner format, today's players don't outdunk previous eras because they aren't actually more athletic or better.

I mentioned Mobley in my post and I said that he's among 3 great athletes in the 2025 All-NBA selections (Mobley, Giannis, Ant), while the 90's All-NBA teams (such as 1994) had Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem, Kemp, MJ, Dominique, Hill, Pippen, Barkley and more... Even an older group in 98' still destroys today's beginners.

It's a tougher path to develop young players into secondary producers like Pippen and Klay (career 2nd options), versus receiving ready-made 1st options/franchise players that were already All-NBA.

The non-dominant stats of 2nd options like Klay and Pippen needed 67 wins and tremendous winning spotlight to make All-NBA, while dominant 1st options like Love make All-NBA with 26 wins.. Bosh, Wade, and AD also made All-NBA without strong teams because they had dominant production that carried their teams.. All-NBA is generally reserved for 1st options, or for 2nd optiona that have enough winning spotlight, or the occasional shot-blocking center..

Pippen couldn't make All-NBA on a losing team and almost no 2nd options ever have.. He certainly wouldn't be a 3-peat champion by 94' and get handed fully-developed goat dynasty (rather than have to build a team from scratch like a true franchise player).. Pippen was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever, and cratered the goat dynasty to barely. 500 by 95' when MJ returned

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How come no one cares about this aspect of Lebron's game:

Lebron increases everyone's assisted buckets (assisted rate), aka spot-up role, which craters their assists and creates low assist teams.. The low assist teams matter because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assist... Since low team assists is the cause or catalyst in every loss, it's bad that Lebron's skillset craters everyone's assists.. The team assist issue confirms that inferior ball movement is the Achilles heel of Lebron's game.

3 unrefuted points itt:

1) Since Lebron needed to join 1st options from other teams to win, he's inferior to guys that could win with 2nd options like Curry, Duncan and MJ.

2) The reason that WestBrick had 30/10/10 seasons with the worst jumper of all-time is because today's beginner format has wide open lanes that allow a driving game to easily offset a broke jumper.. This is similar to Giannis and Lebron achieving great stats with weak jumpers, while fatboys like Luka/Jokic laugh at the NBA's easier format compared to international formats.. Otoh, good scoring in previous eras required great shooting from mid-range or three to shoot over packed paints.. Every good scorer had minimum mid-range volume of SGA, or greater (much greater).. Essentially, good scoring in previous eras required great shooting to shoot over packed paints, while today's open paint allows WestBricking.

3) Since zero players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch, he never developed young players.. He simply can't because his skillset turns everyone to spot-up shooter and craters their assists.. This destroys ballhandlers like Hughes, Ingram, Pippen and Westbrook.