Israel/Palestine thread

I agree. That's awful. But violence eternally leading to more violence never solves anything unless you kill every potential enemy (ethnic cleansing).

So you are saying what Israel needs to do to be safe, and so they should

Not sure what you want, me to Google and find you a link? Any media outlets that you believe wouldn't report on it. Any that have reported it you'll likely denounce as Hamas propaganda. It's one of the most talked about stories of the past week so there's plenty of media to consume and form your own view, not like there's some super secret forum post that'll convince you.

You're honestly publicly calling for ethnic cleansing?

I just deal with facts.

You said it was “proven fake as soon as Israel released it.” So I assumed you had some sort of source to back that up.

It might be easier to just say “I don’t have a source” than to do this whole song and dance.

And I never said anything in support of the assassination or otherwise, simply asked if you had a source.

I am calling for whatever is needed, with absolutely no limits whatsoever, to permananently guarantee nothing like 7 10 can ever happen again in Israel.

If, after rational discourse, what's needed is for every single palestinian to be removed from Gaza, then Israel should remove every single palestinian from Gaza and we should help them doing that.

I am open to other solutions, if you agree with the goal of guaranteeing *as a certainty* that nothing like 7 10 can ever happen again, and you disregard anything but that goal as an absolute, moral imperative above all.

Never again means never again, at any cost, spending your entire life and efforts excluslively toward that outcome until achieved, with no limits other that those of physics. There are no moral limits to what is allowed to achieve something that is morally imperative.

No leval of attrocity will bring you anything like certainty. Unless you kill literally everyone I suppose.

Not does more attrocity mean greater safety.

Of course he is, are you new here?

you can move the people that hate you the **** away

plenty of room in bologna

We obviously have different views so please take this as a genuine question. Is this a religious belief? It's "Jewish land" or whatever the phrasing is? I'm not asking that to be offensive, just to try to understand where you're coming from.

Because you're talking about evicting the original inhabitants of the land to protect what are essentially invaders. Of course Israel has existed for enough time that Israelis also have claim to live there. Hence why most rational people advocate for a peaceful two-state solution, ideally with both sides de-militarised. Why do you believe that's impossible?

I know search results are tailored personally - I've just asked Google if he was a Hamas terrorist and the first four pages have only three stories saying he was, all Israeli websites. If you Google the same, do you get the opposite results? Again, I'm not trying to do some "gotcha" thing here, just curious how much of an echo chamber even Google has become.

I think my google results are similar. Most stories I looked at mentioned that the IDF has failed to provide proof that he was Hamas, but there’s also no explicit mention of the claim being debunked.

this doesnt seem ideal for the people forced to live alongside the murderous rapists that stole everything from them.

It's very hard to prove a negative! So not sure what I could provide to convince you if that doesn't. I can only say I tend to listen to most news (and their talking heads) with an inherent skepticism and on this guy I've only heard the one story - Israel assassinated him because of his online popularity and refusal to stop reporting on the famine. Even if you support Israel and/or the IDF I hope you can find a way to agree that assassinating that guy was wrong.

Pragmatically, there has to be a middle ground. I think the current iteration of the Israeli state is evil, but I doubt the majority of the regular people are. Take the extremists (Hamas, settlers, netanyahu et al) out of the equation and they could probably live peacefully. Closer to home for me, no-one thought northern Ireland could do it and now, the younger generation mostly reject sectarianism.

The only certainty that comes from that approach is of it being a heinous crime.

I'd like to be certain those responsible would be held to account in the courts but certainty is sill a pipe dream

I used to think this. even when liberal Zionists told me that half the country wanted to murder all of the Palestinians and the other half wanted to move them to Africa, I didnt believe them. but he wasnt lying, and the polls prove that.

its pretty insulting to put Hamas in that group.

I think you underestimate how much the international community and Palestinian culture are making such a middle ground impossible. It cant all be on Israel, as you seem to suggest.

And Hamas is a giant problem, but it isn't the only problem. Whatever middle ground happens, is going to have to involve the Palestinian diaspora accepting they are never going to recapture their great grandfather's olive farm (or whatever). And it is time to move on. And part of that is going to have to be the international community modernizing their rules, so Palestinians aren't considered refugees indefinitely no matter where they were born or live.

I listened to the interview Ezra Klein did with the Columbia guy; and one thing that struck me is how conditioned he was to believe it is completely normal and reasonable to have his entire identity wrapped around eventually returning to whatever town his grandfather was from (that doesn't even exist anymore). And my understanding is this is a very prevalent sentiment in Palestinian culture; that is unproductively supported by much of the international community.

There are literally hundreds of millions (possibly billions) of people in the world today who have some ancestor that was displaced in the first half of the 20th century. Jews, Gypsies, Germans, Russians, Palestinians, Indians, Turks, Greeks, Armenians, etc. etc. etc. And Palestinians are the only group that are indoctrinated to believe it is their mission to undo what happened back then, or to work towards this happening. Everyone else has been conditioned to move on, and is much better for it.

You should check out Israel news every once in a while. The IDF claims he was targeted because he was an active member of Hamas military wing and received a salary from them. Neither you or I has any insight into what this reporter's actual affiliation was with Hamas, and how he directly supported their war effort.

That being said, even without the Hamas ties, how Al Jazeera "journalists" should be treated is an interesting ethical question. And that is because they are not actually journalists. They are Qatari state controlled propaganda, whose objective is to provide propaganda to support Hamas, whom Qatar supports economically and diplomatically. They are basically the equivalent of US army military journalists. So if one was trying to be objective from first principles, whether one thinks they are legitimate targets or not is going to depend on whether you think on site military propaganda are legitimate targets.

Now I don't think you (or anyone else on this forum) is really operating from first principles. It is just lizard brain tribalism. So I dont expect such consistency.

Here was a very informative interview of an American nun who has worked in Palestine for many years. She talked about how in Palestinian areas there are Jewish settlers who are burning holy Christian areas. There was also recently a case of a Palestinian American, who was viciously beat to death by a group of radical Jews. This is pure evil and something that is almost never talked about in the west by the media whether it’s CNN or Fox News.

“Christian Nun: Ted Cruz's Christian Zionism Is Killing Christians in the Holy Land”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ELZnj72zDy...

Btw hats off to the many Jews around the world including in Israel, who are abhorred by the murder of Palestinian Americans, by the vicious beatings of Palestinians by Israeli settlers

Usually pro Netanyahu people respond to it by completely blowing it off or immediately bring up Al-Qaeda attacks. As if people somehow support Al-Qaeda or won’t criticize Al-Qaeda type people attacking innocents. And of course, the tired accusation of antisemitism. It’s simply a BLM cancel culture tactic. There is no antisemitism itt it’s just made up.Nobody supports Al-Qaeda nobody in this thread Nobody on this message board supports that. So it’s basically a nonsense. No body supports Hamas either… every pro Israel person on this board should denounce Jewish radicals in Israel. They’re the same as Al-Qaeda. They viciously beat to death an American Palestinian. They spit on Christians. They use violence we’re not just talking about small things….the spitting on Christians it’s disgusting and it happens every day in Israel but that’s small stuff compared to the murders and the brutal violence by Israeli settlers… the burning of holy Christian sites by Jewish settlers. To the pro Netanyahu people Stop acting like it doesn’t exist and when you do find out about it please criticize it.

It’s astonishing, but perhaps not surprising that the pro Netanyahu folk constantly bring up October 7 and the hostages. In the face of the fact that even before October 7, dozens of Palestinian kids were killed by the IDF there are many political prisoners(hostages)in Israel.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/ch....

But more than that, they conveniently blow off the fact that Israelis including soldiers believe their government allowed October 7 to happen. And they say the most childish garbage things like “oh you must believe in Jewish space lasers too”. Just ridiculous.

the pro Netanyahu people can gaslight all they want, they can make false accusations of antisemitism all they want ….they are in the wrong

Israel has the ability to launch precision strikes 1400 miles away in Iran against their political opponents. They did the pager operation in Lebanon. And people are going to sit here and attempt to say that in the most monitored area of the world October 7 was allowed to happen and for hours on end, there was no little military response to it immediately when there could have been .. that is what an idea of soldier told me who I personally randomly met in Asia. This guy is pro-Israel. He is a conservative Jew and he was astonished at the slow military response by Israel to October 7. What is he some kind of a “raging antisemite”

But anyway “hey look!!! Look look at this picture of this Israeli hostage and then shut your mouth about the 50,000 dead Palestinians”…. Total insanity

LOL. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Christians are being persecuted and pushed out of literally EVERY Arab country (exception UAE and SA), with occasional extreme violence, such as the Syrian church that was suicide bombed killing something like 50 people. The issues between the Israeli right and Palestinian Christians in the West Bank is not any more severe than Christians are having in any other Arab nation that Israel is not involved in at all.

If this argument had any validity, what is going on in the West Bank would be the exception, not the rule in the Arab world. In fact in Israel itself, where Israel has complete political and cultural control, the Christian population is doing much better than any of its Arab neighbors, strongly indicating Israel is NOT the problem. Everywhere else Christians are leaving, and their populations declining, under various levels of duress.

The Christian population in the Middle East has gone from 20% in early 1900s to 4% today; and the West Bank isn't any worse than anywhere else (you could argue better because less extreme sectarian violence like we see in Iraq, Syria, Egypt)

When Islam started most of the Middle East was Christian. And in the 800 years since there has been a general clash of civilizations, with Islam encroaching and Christianity retreating, with periods of peace and periods of conflict.

And hyper focusing on minor incidents in the West Bank and ignoring how much worse it is pretty much everywhere else in the Middle East; including large scale genocides, is just the epitome of right wing bad faith smearing of Israel going on right now.