Israel/Palestine thread

Israel has a conscription military, with some exceptions. So pretty much everyone is in the military, or was in the military, or will be in the military. So all you are saying is that not all Israelis agree on everything and have freedom of speech to express this.

This isn't any more meaningful than saying some Americans think Israel or the CIA did 9/11 or the moon landing was fake or the CIA killed the Kennedys (All conspiracies you probably believe given your political polarization).

It’s always the same^ providing distortions and false views on history. And then downplaying what’s going on in Gaza. What is happening to Palestinian Christians in the West Bank is in abomination and for the Israeli government to claim they are just like the west or they are the most Democratic or most free country in the Middle East is total BS.

In the end it doesn’t matter much, my friend. I don’t know if you think Muslims are violent or Islam is an evil religion. It doesn’t really matter because your views on history and the modern day conflict in Gaza is basically propped up at this point by boomer neocons. You’re losing the young Republicans by the day.

The civilized world sees the evil by the IDF. The evil of the radical Jewish settlers in the West Bank. And the lies from the Netanyahu government.

Now I’ll say in my opinion I still believe most Jews in Israel are good people …that seems to be quite different than what some of the pro Israel people in this thread have said about their opinion on Muslims. Isn’t that interesting…. I haven’t seen one pro Palestine poster in this thread say Judaism or Jews has a violent history. Of course they could they could do that by distorting history, picking things here and there. It’s not happening though.

People aren’t gonna get into this tactic of yours or other pro Netanyahu people of attempting to stop talking about the genocide in Gaza in favor of some distorted view of history.

For me not at all. I am an atheist personally.

I come from a western supremacy mindset personally. That land was never for a single second "palestinian land". First, because palestinians don't exist as an ethnic group: they are just middle eastern arabs. Second, because it was british land, under a normal right of conquest. Third, because that speck of land specifically (gaza) was almost dishabitated and unlivable pre ww2.

What you today call "original inhabitants of the land" weren't the original inhabitants of the land either. And you know that. Arabs conquered those lands at a time (7th century), then they got conquered by mamluks that then got conquered by ottomans, who then got conquered by the british basically.

Arabs don't have a claim on those areas since the 13th century. And their original claim was based on conquest.

So you either accept claims by conquest, in which case the entire area is just Israeli, as they won the last war, (1967) or you don't, in which case no one has any legitimate claim there, and so might is right and Israel can use might to get it right.

there is no defensible model where "palestinians" (that don't exist) have any claim on that area.

Arabs should be bending their knees to us in perpetuity , as they only exist because we (=the british, the west) allowed them to. They got several arab majority states thanks to our generosity. And all arabs in the area should have moved back then to one of those arab majority states.

They choosing not to move from land that was never theirs doesn't generate a claim.

Now Israel exists as the only western outpost in the area. That was a mistake (we should have kept more land), but the british lost their ability to do their part for the west with ww2, it was a collapse of collective will, and a lot of the world paid the consequences of that.

But it doesn't matter much: Israel is there. And has a claim on the area as strong as that of neighbours, if not stronger (because neighbors did try to annihilate Israel, and failed miserably). Palestinians don't register, don't exist as an autonomous entity with agency, don't have any special right or claim. Or shouldn't, if again a lot of west hadn't failed deciding to subsidize those people more than any other group in human history for longer. 80 years of fake refugee status, and counting. And a lot of countries "recognizing" a palestinian authority lol.

Now it's time to fix these things for good, removing all "palestinians" from those areas. Why they can't co-habit? because they hate each others. Simple as that. And we stopped pretending people who hate each others can cohabit. And because "palestinians" want jerusalem for themselves, good luck with that.

There it is again bouncing into different topics in the hopes that I go down some sort of a rabbit hole that you think will benefit the pro Israel side. No the Gaza Strip is only 45 miles away from Tel Aviv. That’s not the same thing as 911 or the moon landings which I don’t think we’re faked.

For all of the reasons already provided a reasonable person questions how October 7 occurred. Either it was allowed by rogue officials in the Israel government, or it was a case of sudden collapse of IDF intelligence and border security.

Defense is heavily asymmetric, especially when you are surrounded by enemies and especially when (which was the case up to 2023) you are trying to coexist with a neighbour that wants you dead.

The border was porous, some "palestinians" worked in Israel for example.

What you write might make sense if north korea attempted something on south korea. A fully militarized border with almost no normal interaction between the 2 countries, a large area after the border that acts as a buffer, in that case ye maybe it would make sense to claim that if NK manages an incursion, SK ****ed up or allowed it.

But defense to prevent terrorist attacks has to work every single time , in which case you don't notice anything, and if it fails even once over hundreds of attempts by the enemy, then you only notice that... that's basically the mother of all perception biases.

Sounds like the people put a lot of work into making it a pleasant place to live, and should stay there.

At last, we agree.

They do now, and have done for some time.

Jordan has been a Western outpost since its creation by the British after the Great War. The late King Hussein was an urbane Sandhurst graduate and in the 1960s he considered himself an informal ally of Israel. He was shocked by Israel's unprovoked raid on the West Bank in 1966. (The Israelis did this to procure a defence pact between Jordan and Egypt, so that when they carried out Operation Moked against Egypt in 1967, Jordan would have to react -- it was a matter of a few artillery shells -- giving Israel the long-sought pretext to seize the West Bank.)

Still, Jordan has been allied to Israel by treaty since the 1990s. Its air force flies mainly F-16s, C-130s and US and European helicopters and it trains and exercises with NATO powers.

As always you're full of shite.

Jordan Kuwait KSA and others are allies of the west in various capacity. but they aren't western PEOPLE, western polities, countries where the vast majority of citizens live western lives with western culture and values and preferences *and incomes*.

ethnic group means distinguishable from other groups by DNA testing.

and the cultural part requires a specific culture *not shared by any other group worldwide*. that doesn't apply either.

the only thing unique to Palestinians for now is the worldwide record high UN aid

it might in 200-300-500 years

When did Two plus Two forums become Stormfront?

You have people here claiming "genocide" of squatters in Gaza while also denying the white african genocide? Is Anti-Semitism encouraged here? The Nazi left just cant leave the Jews alone.

I don't think it does exclusively mean that.

And that sounds like a novel special-pleading argument to reach a predetermined conclusion. Bosnian Muslims (descended from Serbs who converted under Ottoman rule) share their religion with many, but are a distinct group. So are Indian Muslims (descended from Hindus who converted under Mughal rule). In Rwanda, Tutsi and Hutu are arbitrary categories invented by the Belgian colonists, but this totemic difference is still considered important and not long ago was a matter of life and death, as the Indian Hindu-Muslim split was in 1947.

bosnian muslims (bosniaks) are actually genetically unique and have developed that in the last 600 years.

Genetically, on the maternal mitochondrial DNA line, a majority (>75%) of Bosnians belong to three of the eleven major European mtDNA haplogroups - H (47.92%), U (19.44%) and J (6.94%), while a large minority (>25) belongs to other rare mitochondrial lineages.[37] The mtDNA studies shows that the Bosnian population partly share similarities with other Southern European populations (especially with mtDNA haplogroups such as pre-HV (today known as mtDNA haplogroup R0), HV2 and U1), but are for the mostly featured by a huge combination of mtDNA subclusters that indicates a consanguinity with Central and Eastern Europeans, such as modern German, West Slavic, East Slavic and Finno-Ugric populations. There is especially the observed similarity between Bosnian, Russian and Finnish samples (with mtDNA subclusters such as U5b1, Z, H-16354, H-16263, U5b-16192-16311 and U5a-16114A). The huge differentiation between Bosnian and Slovene samples of mtDNA subclusters that are also observed in Central and Eastern Europe, may suggests a broader genetic heterogeneity among the Slavs that settled the Western Balkans during the early Middle Ages.[37] The 2019 study of ethnic groups of Tuzla Canton of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs) found "close gene similarity among maternal gene pools of the ethnic groups of Tuzla Canton", which is "suggesting similar effects of the paternal and maternal gene flows on genetic structure of the three main ethnic groups of modern Bosnia and Herzegovina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_st...

Now if palestinians interbreed mostly within themselves for a couple more centuries as i indicated, then and only then they could become an ethnic group. Not before that.

As for culture, the way bosnians live their "islamicity" is very different from the way other islamic cultures do it, it has specific differences (starting with the most important ones: language and food), and it makes them culturally distinct from , say , indonesians.

While palestinians are NOT culturally or ethnically distinct from jordans. Or Israeli arabs for that matter.

I dont think you want to play the genetics, ethnicity, and culture game if you are trying to justify Israel. Might want to look up your boy Benjamin Mileikowsky if you are confused.

there is no Israeli ethnicity or culture in fact.

there might be one 300 years from now.

but Jewish ethnicity and culture exist.

I justify Israel because of right of conquest as explained already. the losers should be thankful they aren't all dead and move away

A refreshingly honest viewpoint. But I disagree, Israel def has its own culture. Baby murder, rape, and theft are their fundamental principles.

With multi-trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, the rest of the world incentivized more and more to shift away from the dollar, and pro-intervention boomers dying off, the US is about to be in the same position.

I think culture forms faster than that, especially when there is a common language that isn't spoken anywhere else in the world. I would say there is probably a distinct Israeli culture already, which is a cosmpolitan fusion of ME and the West.

Most people view ethnicity and culture as softer terms than you. Prior to 1967 I would say it is fair to say there was no Palestinian ethnicity or culture. The West Bank was ethnically and culturally indistinguishable from Jordan, and Gaza/Egypt. But I would say 50+ years of population separation and common lived experience distinct from other Arab populations is enough to warrant Palestinians having developed their own culture and (arguably) ethnicity.

Israeli culture:

they pride in being *******s. and in raping *******s.

People can justify whatever they want. It is their free speech. But folks will react with criticism or agreement.

When you talk about this “right of conquest thing”. Sure the world is shaped by warfare and empires expanding. The question is in 2025 How are countries conducting themselves? Look at the United States , Canada and western European countries. Distinctively different from Israel In terms of its immigration laws …. It is quite difficult for a non-Jew to become a citizen of Israel. Now with regards to US immigration there’s people from all different religions and skin colors is coming to the USA. We don’t go out of our way to say if you are Christian, you can come to the USA. Israel will accept any Jew from all over the world.

actually in Israel interfaith marriage is outlawed. While there are interfaith couples, they cannot have their marriage legally performed in Israel. That’s similar to Some but not all Muslim majority countries. Like there’s interfaith couples in Saudi Arabia and other GCC countries. There are nightclubs, drinking, and casinos, and plenty of Muslim majority countries…

Look at the military of the United States. It’s a melting pot of cultures. Not the case with the Israeli defense forces. They have a mandatory service for Jews in Israel, but not for Christians or Muslims. That is problematic…. That makes it difficult to say Israel is some kind of a western outpost. Btw should non-white Americans feel glad that they’re alive in America???. Who are the losers in Israel? What does that actually mean. Are Native Americans losers in the United States? . Native American tribes fought with each other before Europeans arrived. Arabs including Jews fought with each other before the idea of Zionism came about.

Even throughout history when the Roman empire expanded, they brought on different ethnicities who rose up the ranks.

Non whites in the USA are 100% a part of the American fabric able to join the military and go up the ranks of our military go up the ranks of politics and of business.

And folks have a right to support Israel, but they are not correct when they say that it is some kind of a western outpost. Israel is a country that utilizes Jewish theocracy/religion/ethnicity quite a bit for its laws again, the interfaith marriage situation. Their military draft laws, for example a Jew anywhere in the world has a right to immigrate to Israel, but why don’t they do that for Buddhists? And when people point out there’s been some non-Jews who volunteer for the IDF that is not the same thing as them being excluded from a mandatory draft.

incredible antisemitism form the LA Times about Israeli culture

https://archive.ph/SAIUP