Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Just wanted you to voice that you actually believe Palestine could achieve a resemblance of freedom through terrorism.
The international condemnation of Israel’s ongoing genocide and war crimes grows louder by the day, and the demonstrations grow more numerous. It’s hard to say how this will pan out for Israel but I doubt it will ever be seen in the same light by the terminally clueless like you again.
But the abolition of apartheid itself was not achieved by way of armed resistance. You're kinda making my point for me.
how can you say that? armed resistance groups operated the entire time.
Absolutely true.
But folks with a functioning moral compass typically do not resort to terrorism.
That’s absolutely false.
quick reminder that Mandela was officially considered a terrorist by the US government until 2008.
Maybe they were correct in doing so. In your opinion, was Mandela a terrorist?
But whether he was a terrorist or not, that doesn't change the fact that apartheid was abolished by non-violent means.
It was a combination of trade-embargos against South Africa and the worldwide consensus that apartheid was an immoral system.
armed resistance is the only way to achieve freedom. it may not work, but oppressors are not going to give up their material interests if the untermensch ask nicely. I cant think of a single situation where that happened. Haiti, Algeria, Vietnam, India, South Africa.
October 7th was a one way ticket to the afterlife for most of the fighters entering Israel and the only realistic outcome is what we are watching with our own eyes right now. A much more superior army destroying a people without an army.
You and Jalfrezi can convince each other that terrorism was going to lead to freedom but you're both fools and if you both agree terrorism wasn't going to lead to freedom you're twice as stupid for supporting October 7th.
You can argue geopolitically Israel causes more problems than it is worth to the US. But as far as our military industrial complex goes, they are probably the nation the US gets the most out of. They still purchase the vast majority of arms (and as Lucium notes, are required to buy US manufactured arms), and the aid they get, where US companies still get all the money, isn't
I do argue this.
Who else is on the list? And are we just taking about military aid, or other aid too?
There is on online populist right movement to stop sending food aid to Africa, with the argument it is just causing an unsustainable population explosion, where the West is having to take in all the excess population, which is a giant negative. Are you one of those guys?
Whilst aid certainly has reduced poverty overall I'm not convinced the 2.6 trillion in aid they've received has been spent well.
I am certainly one of those who thinks immigration is a giant negative in the way it's done now in a lot of Western countries.
I'm not against aid but I live in a country where in 2024 we broke the record for food bank visits. I'm very much my own people first, everyone else second and in that regard Ukraine, Mali, Afghanistan, Ethiopia and whoever else are no different than Israel. I don't want any of my tax money going there when my own people can't afford food.
Maybe they were correct in doing so. In your opinion, was Mandela a terrorist?
But whether he was a terrorist or not, that doesn't change the fact that apartheid was abolished by non-violent means.
It was a combination of trade-embargos against South Africa and the worldwide consensus that apartheid was an immoral system.
oh right, so the South African people that struggled for decades both violently and non-violently had no say in it. you attribute it only to outside forces driven by the West. just unparalleled arrogance and Supremacy.
October 7th was a one way ticket to the afterlife for most of the fighters entering Israel and the only realistic outcome is what we are watching with our own eyes right now. A much more superior army destroying a people without an army. You and Jalfrezi can convince each other that terrorism was going to lead to freedom but you're both fools and if you both agree terrorism was
Im not convinced it will lead to freedom. I am convinced that it is a necessary component for even a small chance at freedom.
you attributing the genocide on Hamas and Palestinian resistance is the height of racism and victim blaming.
The international condemnation of Israel’s ongoing genocide and war crimes grows louder by the day, and the demonstrations grow more numerous. It’s hard to say how this will pan out for Israel but I doubt it will ever be seen in the same light by the terminally clueless like you again.
Better late than never. Unfortunately for so many innocent victims in Gaza, it came way too late.
It could be said that the only thing rarer in nature than an elephant that can fly is a Palestinian peace movement.
Liar. Most of the resistance is peaceful, it just doesn't get noticed. Watch Five Broken Cameras or No Other Land. The peace movement would be even bigger if it wasn't targeted first by Israeli rifles, like in the Great March of Return.
This is a situation where forbidden acts like wading in the ocean or gathering rainwater for a garden are resistance. Remaining alive and present is resistance.
Want non-violent movement to express Palestinian democratic rights -- release Marwan Barghouti instead of starving him in a cell.
oh right, so the South African people that struggled for decades both violently and non-violently had no say in it.
Of course they had a say in it. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
you attribute it only to outside forces driven by the West. just unparalleled arrogance and Supremacy.
The white minority controlled the government. That's apartheid. Hard to argue that economic sanctions didn't greatly accelerate the process of abolishing apartheid.
The apartheid regime gave up after Cuba defeated its army in Angola. Cuba defeated the attempt to create a vast cordon sanitaire in the grasslands bordering South Africa. This meant that the resistance had great maneuver room to infiltrate guerrillas across the border and fight a war that PM Botha knew he couldn't win.
The international condemnation of Israel’s ongoing genocide and war crimes grows louder by the day, and the demonstrations grow more numerous. It’s hard to say how this will pan out for Israel but I doubt it will ever be seen in the same light by the terminally clueless like you again.
And none of this was achieved through terrorism but through Israel taking this war way further than it should have.
It's been a pleasure watching you expose yourself for the moron you truly are.
Im not convinced it will lead to freedom. I am convinced that it is a necessary component for even a small chance at freedom.
you attributing the genocide on Hamas and Palestinian resistance is the height of racism and victim blaming.
Then you are just as dumb as Jalfrezi is.
you attributing the genocide on Hamas and Palestinian resistance is the height of racism and victim blaming.
Hamas and the Palestinian people aren't the same. I'm anti-Israel because of what it is doing to the innocent Palestinians. If they blew up every single last Hamas member tomorrow without killing a single innocent Palestinian I'd celebrate it.
This way the Palestinians can be free from the oppression that is Hamas. Next step is to free them from the oppression that is Israel and give them their own state, not run by a death cult like Hamas.
actually it's fairly obvious that the marxist terror of Mandela and friends delayed the end of apartheid.
This is totally false. Apartheid ended only when the international community started to unite against it and condemn it, long after he was imprisoned in the early 1960s and decades after South Africa was first excluded from international events. You don't know what you're talking about.
Because he's lying again.
You can argue geopolitically Israel causes more problems than it is worth to the US. But as far as our military industrial complex goes, they are probably the nation the US gets the most out of. They still purchase the vast majority of arms (and as Lucium notes, are required to buy US manufactured arms), and the aid they get, where US companies still get all the money, isn't
Is it a valid argument to say that US citizens probably don't want the federal government having access to Israeli surveillance tech? Is it a valid argument to say that this is an example of the West becoming more like China?
Once more I'll state the argument that seems to never get answered: If the government is going to be all-in on the pro-Israel stance, shouldn't the US stop teaching the values of freedom and self-determination to young kids? Isn't that giving leftist professors too much ammo for sowing anti-West dissent once they hit thinking age?
Is it a valid argument to say that US citizens probably don't want the federal government having access to Israeli surveillance tech? Is it a valid argument to say that this is an example of the West becoming more like China? Once more I'll state the argument that seems to never get answered: If the government is going to be all-in on the pro-Israel stance, shouldn't the US sto
How familiar are you with kids today? My 13 year old son has a smart phone and is well aware all the major tech companies have surveillance built in.to their apps. And That the govt probably has access to. Same thing with all his cousins and friends.
I even tell them all not to download or use Tik Tok because they don’t want the Chinese govt spying on them, and none of them care at all. They all have it.
Kids today have grown up understanding anyone can spy on them whenever they want, and normie ones more or less just accept this. Except for weird left wing activists (who are the tiny minority of kids and young adults, even if they make the most noise): what do kids today care which govts are spying on them? US, Israel, china, who cares?
Available evidence indicates somewhere around ~14 Israelis were killed by friendly fire on 10/7. Out of somewhere around 1200 casualties. The Hannibal directive is real, but is being wildly over-utilized in completely bad faith.As far as the highlighted, there is video evidence this is more or less what happened. Also, lets keep in mind estimates are more Palestinian invader
The incentive of Israeli investigations is to sweep the Hannibal directive under the rug as much as possible, so of course we have to take the 14 number with a massive grain of salt.
As poker players with limited information, we have to make the best conjecture based on the evidence. When I see pics of obliterated structures and rows of blackened cars, I have to assign a far higher probability to tank shells and missiles from helicopters.
RPGs are heavy, not that powerful, and you don't need them to take a hostages, so there probably wouldn't be too many of them on the motorbikes/paragliders. The Gazans were fully aware that they would be facing helicopters/tanks, so the ones that were used were probably so that they wouldn't be completely defenseless against them. If they are smart/disciplined enough to outsmart Shin-bet/Mossad and launch a surprise attack, they are smart/disciplined enough to use their weapons effectively.
That said, I'm sure there was plenty of guys loaded with AK ammo going crazy, but I highly doubt they were hauling/spraying RPGs on a raid like this.
How familiar are you with kids today? My 13 year old son has a smart phone and is well aware all the major tech companies have surveillance built in.to their apps. And That the govt probably has access to. Same thing with all his cousins and friends. I even tell them all not to download or use Tik Tok because they don’t want the Chinese govt spying on them, and none of the
I'm saying adults probably don't want it.
As for the kid argument, I am more curious what pro-Israel posters think about teaching young kids values like freedom and self-determination. Couldn't the US stop the 50%/70% anti-Israel sentiment in 18-49s if they simply taught them from a young age that America is a powerful country that gets what it wants, rather than all the high-minded values?
Would you be in favor of this, or are you content allow the hypocrisy to continue disillusioning youths for the foreseeable future?
(Option 3 is, of course, actually aligning oneself with the high-minded values, but that's not an option for the hyper-Machiavellian pro-Israel stance, hence the interesting conundrum for its supporters).
Of course they had a say in it. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
The white minority controlled the government. That's apartheid. Hard to argue that economic sanctions didn't greatly accelerate the process of abolishing apartheid.
ok, I dont deny that economic sanctions were important. but those came later. and they didnt materialize out of nothing or oppressors feeling lol bad. they came after decades of resistance including armed resistance. my argument is that the armed resistance was necessary to create the conditions that allowed for the overthrow of apartheid.
Other than being an outpost for the USA(lol). What other useful benefits do we get?
Yes, the Western world as a whole has been sending a lot of aid towards areas it should’ve never sent aid to and Israel is certainly on that list.
Intelligence, RnD from their military, commerce, a balancing force to our adversaries, a key trade outpost…
Like why do people have to pretend that our relationship to Israel hasn’t been tremendously beneficial to the US?
Then you are just as dumb as Jalfrezi is. Hamas and the Palestinian people aren't the same. I'm anti-Israel because of what it is doing to the innocent Palestinians. If they blew up every single last Hamas member tomorrow without killing a single innocent Palestinian I'd celebrate it. This way the Palestinians can be free from the oppression that is Hamas. Next step is to free
bruv, who is going to free them from Israel? and why isnt the West Bank free where Hamas has almost no presence?
Intelligence, RnD from their military, commerce, a balancing force to our adversaries, a key trade outpost…
Like why do people have to pretend that our relationship to Israel hasn’t been tremendously beneficial to the US?
The US wants a presence in the ME. That's the only thing Israel is good for. I guess dragging the US into wars and killing women and children too.
