Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
The late Christopher Hitchens who was quite critical of Muslim majority governments had an interesting take on Zionism. Talking about how there were indeed anti-Jews in England in Europe in America, who were totally for Jews leaving their countries and going to Israel to get rid of what they felt was “the Jewish problem”. They couldn’t stand that Jews were very much a part of western culture in the 20th century obviously the United States of America and he could even say the Soviet Union where 500,000 Jews fought for the Soviet Union while the Nazis were doing what they were doing. Jews served as generals in the USSR. Such antisemites in the USA, England , the USSR we’re overwhelmingly opposed by the population of these countries and the fact that over 1 million Jews fought for the armies of these countries in World War II.
But let’s just set aside the USSR and talk about the United States, England and Europe and the start of Zionism in the 19th century and 20th century. It’s really interesting how more than a few Zionists were happy to work with antisemites in the west to create modern day Israel. And so so many Jews around the world you could even toss in Arab Jews who were a huge part of Arab culture as so many sources say were against this Zionism. That’s why even to this day most of the world Jews do not live in Israel. Folks car argue in defense of Zionism, but they can never take away the fact that Jews were integral parts of so many countries in world history. And indeed many rejected going to Israel. They stayed in their own country and again nobody can deny the facts and the numbers most Jews today don’t live in Israel.
Yeah, we all know the dishonest tactics that people like you use. You just got done calling someone a child murderer with no evidence, which you got told by a mod to “chill out” on (which is a hilarious slap on the wrist but whatever).
His posts claiming to have been a combat soldier in the IDF for decades are absolutely evidence.
That’s settled
Sad to see blue have a mental breakdown. Now his points about Muslims are thoroughly debunked by the fact that the gulf states are arguably the safest in the world to travel to.
You know someone completely loses it when they resort to bigotry, or there’s also this tactic people have of accusing people of “spreading misinformation”. There’s never any attempt to refute what is being said. That is also a big big-time trolling tactic. It’s a way to basically silence free speech. And most people today won’t have it when it comes to the Israel topic hence the fact that much of the civilized world is opposed to israeli policy as we have seen from the pew poll…. This is a critical point as indeed some defenders of Israel will immediately call somebody antisemitic or claim one is “spreading misinformation” and that’s all they say. They never actually attempt to refute what is being said.
See anybody can refute the idea that Muslims or Jews are inherently bad. I did that a few posts ago wrt Muslims by showing the stat about the gulf countries and crime. I haven’t seen anybody attempt to say Jews are inherently bad all throughout this thread. But if somebody has said it, it can obviously be thoroughly debunked by looking at communities with significant Jewish populations around the world where there is very little crime.
There are plenty of people attempting to defend either the Israeli or Palestinian position with context and effort . And obviously there is nuance within both positions. But if you want to find out who the bad faith actors are, you just have to look at the people who blow off contextual arguments by saying oh this is misinformation or this is antisemitism or Islamophobia without providing any attempt to refute what is being said.
no its pretty easy to differentiate but I am convinced that you guys just refuse to read and comprehend things. and ofc I am not saying this as a defender of Trolly and his opinions on IP (or anything) nor Tucker/Fuentes.
So Section C of the West Bank has about 700,000 Jews living in well established cities, and around 350,000 Palestinian Muslims. Israel has stated they have plans to annex this, which predictably is met with outrage by the usual suspects.
But what exactly is the alternative? Every Palestinian govt entity, including the PA, states emphatically no Jews are allowed in any territory they control. Whereas if Israel annexed the land presumably everyone in the land annexed would be incorporated with equal rights, including hundreds of thousands of Muslim Arab Palestinians.
So, short of embracing ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Jews, it seems the only actual workable solution is annexation by Israel. It really is bizarre that the people most outraged about fake ethnic cleansing and Apartheid, are most enthusiastic about actual ethnic cleansing and Apartheid. Truly is upside down world.
So Section C of the West Bank has about 700,000 Jews living in well established cities, and around 350,000 Palestinian Muslims. Israel has stated they have plans to annex this, which predictably is met with outrage by the usual suspects. But what exactly is the alternative? Every Palestinian govt entity, including the PA, states emphatically no Jews are allowed in any terr
Huh …. Your last few posts, your fabricating peoples viewpoints and now this. Jews anywhere in the world can immigrate to Israel. Palestinian Christians and Muslims living abroad cannot immigrate to Palestine or Israel. Palestinians are second class citizens in areas where there are Jewish settlers. Settlers walk around with machine guns, they harassed Palestinians. They have attacked Christians, they attack churches… and this of course,
Israeli Jewish human rights groups recognize this. You blow them off too.
Huh …. Your last few posts, your fabricating peoples viewpoints and now this. Jews anywhere in the world can immigrate to Israel. Palestinian Christians and Muslims living abroad cannot immigrate to Palestine or Israel. Palestinians are second class citizens in areas where there are Jewish settlers. Settlers walk around with machine guns, they harassed Palestinians. They
Your obsession with "Jews attacking Christians" perfectly encapsulates just how bad faith you are. With no exaggeration probably 99% of the sectarian violence against Christians in the MENA is from Muslims. And you and Tucker couldn't give a single ****. You and Tucker are motivated completely by hatred of Jews. You dont give a single **** about Christians living 5,000 miles away.
Transgender extreme left terrorists in the US commit 100X the targeted violence against Christians than all the Jews in the world combined. And again, no shits given by you.
You are singularly obsessed with Jews to the point of absurdity.
Your obsession with "Jews attacking Christians" perfectly encapsulates just how bad faith you are. With no exaggeration probably 99% of the sectarian violence against Christians in the MENA is from Muslims. And you and Tucker couldn't give a single ****. You and Tucker are motivated completely by hatred of Jews. You dont give a single **** about Christians living 5,000 mile
You make things up all the time. Again, tell us all what you think about Islam and how you associate negative words with the term Allah. I respect Judaism. And as always, you’re using left-wing tactics to try to cancel me. You fail
Trans people commit about 1/10 of one percent of mass shootings in the past couple of years in the USA . And they represent about 1% of the American population. Way way underrepresented.
https://www.theviolenceproject.org/key-f...
But here again you go on random tangent about conflicts outside of Israel. Simply telling people what they think, lying about peoples views. Downplay the atrocities in Gaza. And indeed Jewish attacks against Christians that is real. You’re simply downplaying it or using this bizarre tactic of talking about other events. And even when you attempt to talk about other wars and conflicts, you just can’t handle the fact that the war in Gaza has seen the result of the average lifespan in Gaza plummeting. It is much worse there than it was in Afghanistan, Syria or Iraq when those countries were involved in wars as the chart from breaking points has shown.
Jewish supremacy doesn’t care about Christians or Muslims. Many Israeli human rights groups have talked about this as well as Jewish scholars in recent publishing across the world. Jewish supremacy these past few years have shown itself to be just as much of a threat as Christian or Muslim supremacy. Again because of perhaps the propaganda that you have allowed to motivate you you will attempt to blow this off or morally convince yourself that this cannot be the case ….well the data, the numbers and everything we’re seeing from genocide scholars and academia shows that what is happening in Gaza is a genocide.
It’s leftist tactics. They call you evil, murderer, genocidal, say you should be executed, call you a rapist, racist, colonizer, oppressor, justify your murder, tell you to commit suicide, and then act like they have no idea why you’re mad.
Just because people keep repeating this doesn’t mean it’s true. A lie told a million times is still a lie.
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Yeah, we all know the dishonest tactics that people like you use. You just got done calling someone a child murderer with no evidence, which you got told by a mod to “chill out” on (which is a hilarious slap on the wrist but whatever).
I called one specific proud IDF person that, which you then attempted to generalise with your ‘the evil leftists say these terrible things about you like blah blah blah’ as if it’s a blanket criticism of other people on this forum.
You’re a very dishonest poster, and childish too.
So Section C of the West Bank has about 700,000 Jews living in well established cities, and around 350,000 Palestinian Muslims. Israel has stated they have plans to annex this, which predictably is met with outrage by the usual suspects. But what exactly is the alternative? Every Palestinian govt entity, including the PA, states emphatically no Jews are allowed in any terr
is overpopulation a reason to lose land for a country ?
jews can move elsewhere, about texas !
well i guess u agree with putin plans of annexing some part of ukrayne then...
IDF is a massive kidnapping ring.
Those jailed for long periods without charge or trial include medical workers, teachers, civil servants, media workers, writers, sick and disabled people and children.
Among the most egregious cases are those of an 82-year-old woman with Alzheimer’s jailed for six weeks and of a single mother separated from her young children. When the mother was released after 53 days she found the children begging on the streets.
I thought you had got the memo that IAGA is a made up organization anyone with no qualifications can become a member of (by paying a very small yearly fee), that before shutting down access to it's member list because it was grotesque, had 600 members of which 80 Iraqi.
oh and only a fourth of the members "voted".
it is truly a comedy of redicolousness that only low IQ leftists could have believed meant anything, especially given that "organization" was never cited nor discussed before (otherwise it would have been clear that it was a joke and you would have avoided this tremendous embarrassment).
low IQ leftists are so deeply inamored with credentialism (when it rubber stamps leftist claims ofc) that they went this far.
but at least the "still low but a little higher IQ" leftists stopped talking about this made up organization when the **** hit the fan, you are still going , why?
is overpopulation a reason to lose land for a country ?
jews can move elsewhere, about texas !
well i guess u agree with putin plans of annexing some part of ukrayne then...
The West Bank is mostly empty land. The Palestinians ethnically cleanse Jews because they are religious extremist genocidal racists filled with hatred, not because of overpopulation. Now you can argue this viewpoint is justified by their circumstance, but regardless this is the truth of their motivations.
And the land in Israel and Palestinian territories sucks and is hard to live on. Which is why pretty much no one lived there until the Zionists brought industrial technology and developed the land (which allowed for large immigration and native population growth of Jews and Arabs in the last 150 years).
And the West Bank Palestinians have no capacity to develop the land, so they couldn't develop the land if they wanted to. The only reason there is any functional cities at all is because of Israel and outside developers.
And Putin is currently doing a goodwill tour with leaders who represent the majority of the worlds population. So regardless of what I think, the world is very ok with Putin's behavior. And per formatively outraged at Israel, showing just how bad faith it all is.
From long before 1939 and long before the "Palestinian" ethnic identity was even invented; the Arabs of this region made it very clear there would be no place for Jews once they kicked out the British and Americans. And this position hasn't really changed in the last 150 years. Which is why Israel has 20% Arabs who live peacefully with full legal rights; and Jews are expressly not permitted in lands under "Palestinian" control; and the PA have explicitly stated no Jews will be allowed in any future state.
Again, you can argue this viewpoint is justified by circumstance; but it is the dominant viewpoint.
Hamas actually has the more inclusive viewpoint. Their plan is to conquer all of Israel and establish an Apartheid Caliphate. But once they do this, they state after executing all the Jewish fighters, the rest can stay as slaves and dhimni, per religious doctrine.
In other news Israel has announced if/when the publicity stunt flotilla ever makes it to waters Israel controls, Israels' intention is to seize the vessels and convert them for use as coastal police vessels. So I guess they worked out a way to repay themselves for all the resources it will consume to deal with the publicity stunt.
You do realize that Israel would have run out of bombs/components/heavy equipment not long after 10/7 if there weren't multiple shipments arriving from the US every week. You guys seem to be downplaying the importance of this, but again I ask: who is going to replace the US? Who else out there has a large and powerful voting bloc who believe that their government is doing God's
You do realize an uncertain supply chain means Israel will fight a much different, more destructive war. Israel can do A LOT more damage using much less materials if it has too. And the casualty rates of its enemies will probably be 100x, if not more.
I think you have a very fundamental misunderstanding of how future wars will play out if you ever get your wish of "shutting Israel off." Israel isn't going to just let itself be destroyed by IRGC and Hezbollah because they don't have expensive precision missiles and anti-missile components. They are going to take the fight much, much harder to their enemies using much more destructive, less precise measures.
You do realize an uncertain supply chain means Israel will fight a much different, more destructive war. Israel can do A LOT more damage using much less materials if it has too. And the casualty rates of its enemies will probably be 100x, if not more. I think you have a very fundamental misunderstanding of how future wars will play out if you ever get your wish of "shutting I
But their enemies don't all stand out in the open. The civilian casualties will be 100x, and Israel will likely be under a complete blockade if they pursue this path.
Think about this: the Houthi goat herders currently have Israel's Red Sea port completely closed, and have stopped all ships going from the Suez to Haifa and Tel Aviv. How easy for it would be for a stronger force to completely blockade them?
My overall point is this: is this the country Israelis want to live in? One where they have to have an awkward situation every time they hand over their passport, one where they are back to kibbutz-level subsistence farming, and one where they are holed up in a state of paranoia threatening everyone with nukes?
The path to redemption is making major concessions to the Palestinians, not getting rid of them for good.
